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Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question. Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question.

09-20-2013 , 01:44 PM
So here's an example of a number of hands put together to kinda get all the questions answered.

Villain - Solid Tag player. Isn't going to get out of hand. His dynamic with you is that of "I'm not playing him out of position." and when you're out of position with him behind you feel the same.

Hero - Tag bending in lag's direction.

We are IP with A5s. Effective stacks $300. 1/3 NL

Villain UTG raises to $20. Folds around to Hero who calls IP.

Flop $40

Tc9c4s

Villain leads for $30
Hero calls.

I'm calling here because the flop hits my perceived range and am planning to raise the turn.

Turn - $100

Qd

So this is a bad card to raise if he leads. But he checks. Hero bets $60. Villain calls.

River - $220

Th

Villain checks. Hero?

I feel like a better line would've been to check behind on the turn - given the Q hits his range more than mine - and when it gets checked to me, bet. Need help on bet sizing if that were the case though - We have $290 behind, and if I bet like $95 trying to make it look like a value bet - JJ+ are making crying calls with odds of like 3 and a bit to 1. If I bet bigger - like $150, how often does a solid tag look me up, given my image etc. Is betting bigger against this villain going to show a profit? Or is it better to just give up?

OTT - I feel I should've checked behind. Now hypothetically, if villain were to lead into me for $60-70, is he folding AQ/KK/AA/JJ to a raise - and if so, how much? If I shove, it looks too much like a bluff so I'm curious as to your thoughts on this. I'll post another hand example of something similar later.
Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question. Quote
09-20-2013 , 02:07 PM
Checks. When he c/c's turn he usually has a pair and more of a tp at that. I don't think he is folding river, you can't really rep much, I doubt you'd bet a T on the turn. You'd bet a Q rather small OTR, but this bet is going to get looked up by so much as river bricks a tonne of hands aswell, so that isn't a good story to tell.


Tbh i would just give up on this turn card, you're just folding out his complete air, which he is unlikely to have given UTG raise to 20. Given your image, on the turn V probably thought he was either going have to face a raise from you and play for stacks if he bet or just c/c. V most likely bets all his FDs and 2pair+ OTT though.

There are sooo many hands you'll bet or raise this turn with. JX combo draws, flush draws, pair combo draws etc, airball, two pairs+. If he's holding AQ, JJ+ he's c/c all day. He might even c/c with AK as he surely cannot face a raise with that hand but feels it has to good equity to c/f.

Betting river is bad as he should be calling it off soooo much, even with AK.
Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question. Quote
09-20-2013 , 02:20 PM
How many 9s and 10s does he have in his UTG raising range?
How does he perceive your range here based on previous hands he has seen u play? I assume you have the flush draw on the flop? Based on stack size and flop bet sizing im not crazy about a flop semibluff. I think the call is slightly better. If we were $350+ deep u could raise/fold flop. Would he bet AT, Ak, AJ, JJ, here? If so, bombing turn + the river is the best option. If not, we need more reads and info. Its really going to depend on his view of u and how well he hand-reads. The better he is, the easier this bluff should be for u.
Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question. Quote
09-20-2013 , 02:20 PM
Given stack sizes, fold preflop. With nobody else in hand and facing what is probably a pretty strong raising range, A-rag suited needs stacks to be really deep. At least $400 and preferably $600 or more. This is not only because you need stacks to be deep to get paid off, but because you need deeper stacks for bluffing to work.

Flop is useless to your hand and you should fold to a bet here. Yes, the T9 suited hits your range more then his, but it also means a lot of possible draws so you probably will find it hard to get a decent player to fold to a single bet here. The turn is a good card to bet when he checks, and $60 is around the right number. The Q could have helped you a couple of ways and $60 makes it expensive for villain to stick around with two random unpaired cards without wasting money when villain does have it. Over betting the pot looks bluffy here but does have a better chance of getting a fold from a low pair. Villain is likely figure you to be semi bluffing a flush draw that has the Qc. Given stack sizes, if villain bets into you he probably never folds unless he was double barreling air, so absent some specific read you have to fold if he bets into you.

Checking turn and betting river doesn't work often in general because you have no leverage. On river villain knows he can just call and the hand is over, so he will make more crying calls. You did get the perfect card for making a bet if you had checked turn, as villain has to include hands like JT in your range. You will need to bet big though to keep JJ+ from making a crying call, $75-$90 looks like a strong value bet. After betting turn the only card that gets a river fold is probably a club.
Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question. Quote
09-20-2013 , 02:25 PM
His utg open range will be very strong, it crushes A5s, and the spr is much too low for you to make it up.

When he leads the flop he's mostly on overpairs, draws with overcards, and occassionally naked overcards. If you float here there are very few cards that will make him want to fold the turn when he checks, and given his range i doubt hes checking to you all that often. The Q strengthens his range and was a bad card to bluff at.

On the river hes mostly committed. He's probably only folding unimproved overcards, and i doubt he has many left after calling the turn. I would cut my losses and give up.
Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question. Quote
09-20-2013 , 02:45 PM
Fold flop and probably folding pre heads up without $400+ effective. What's your plan on the turn when he bets $70? Shove? No reason to call flop just to bomb turn in 1/2 or 1/3. His PFR range to $20 should be pretty strong.
Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question. Quote
09-20-2013 , 03:29 PM
I don't agree with a lot of the posts here (preflop is arguable of course but there is room to argue based on your personal tendencies ). Assuming the villain is actually a solid TAG...

First, I'm confused by the OP, the Q ott is a good card to raise if he bets...think about how many hands in his range are bet/folding versus bet calling. Once he c/c's ott, you have to bomb the river. T is not the best card to do it with but a bluff is definitely profitable here against a TAG who cbet the flop, then checked twice OOP....you would have to have a reliable read that the guy gets creative with monsters or stubborn with a medium pair to make this an unprofitable bluff imo. Yes, sometimes you will run into the top of his range...

Flop is probably fine to float/bluff raise here as well (if the guy is an actual TAG that is and has a relatively high continuation bet freq). You have 2 backdoor draws or 15 cards that you can apply pressure with versus a TAG, not to mention the 3 aces that he'll fire at with his entire range ott.

Jeez guys, read through this forum sometime and look at all the threads telling people to bet/fold the turn with medium-strength holdings....

I think if OP made a serious error it is in acting near read less. Solid TAG doesn't necessarily mean much postflop, particularly live where everyone seems scared of MUTB all the time.
Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question. Quote
09-20-2013 , 04:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by -C-P-
I don't agree with a lot of the posts here (preflop is arguable of course but there is room to argue based on your personal tendencies ).
Me neither. Yes, I think youll end up having to bluff frequently with a5s vs an EP raise so im not a huge fan of the call here. I could see u 3bet bluffing if he has some weak openers but without deeper stacks its a tough hand to play profitably in a raised pot. Now if this guy is a mostly straight forward TAG, hes going to be bet/folding much of his strong made hands OTT. Based on the turn play, we could easily cap his range at 88, 9x, tx, JJ, aj,aq. Your read on him about your preceived range determines if hes stubborn or not enough to call off with a bluffcatcher here. What can u rep OTT that shoves river? Kj, 10,8, 10,X, qx with FD, FH. I think its going to be very tough for him to call a shove.
Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question. Quote
09-20-2013 , 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by -C-P-

Jeez guys, read through this forum sometime and look at all the threads telling people to bet/fold the turn with medium-strength holdings....
The reason people give that advice so often is because your average villain at live low stakes is pretty terrible and will often call with worse holdings but rarely raise with worse as a bluff so you can comfortably bet/fold. Just because the OP described this villain as a solid tag doesn't mean he isn't also pretty terrible, especially since that is the only read we were given. He may not have read all those 2+2 posts about bet/folding marginal hands.

I would pretty much always fold this pre flop when facing this type of villain, sizing, and with this stack depth.

You made it to the flop, and assuming you flopped a flush draw (that part isn't particularly clear since you didnt specify the suit) you flopped pretty well. You're perceived range on this flop will have some sets but tons and tons of draws or other marginal holdings. Because you have so many draws and marginal hands in your range and the villain should know this, I prefer flatting the flop to raising.

The turn doesn't really complete many draws for you, I think you'd probably be raising your weaker draws like KJ on the flop to balance with your sets. The only hand that would have improved for you is QJ but I don't know if you would want to be betting QJ on this turn. Anyway, I check back the turn with the intention of giving up on the river unimproved.

Now that you bet the turn small and dug the hole a little deeper, I really don't know what I would be doing on the river. He clearly has some showdown value and I don't think you have many terribly strong hands in your range after taking this line. I am pretty sure he would be able to talk himself into a call very often so I don't really like a bluff here. If you feel you must win this hand for some reason I would go pretty big on the river and try to represent bottom set or something like that.
Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question. Quote
09-20-2013 , 07:36 PM
Fold Pre-flop. Ok you're in position against him, but A5s plays terrible against his raising range. Unless you think you are just a so much stronger post-flop player, that you want to get in any pot with him, but you're not really deep enough here for that anyway. With no other dead money in the pot, super easy fold.

But since you called, ok the flop hits your range more than his, so I see why you are considering floating and barreling the turn, but I would still fold flop to that bet, unless the V is pretty weak-tight and will find a fold easily if he hasn't connected.

Q... not a great card, to fire the barrel on.
You're pretty much only representing AQ, KQ, QJ, and a slim chance of QT, maybe KT,AT..
So if I was going to try it, I would rep QT and fire a pot size bet, but I would know that a lot of the time V is going to call, and I'm going to have to be able to fire again on the river. For me way too risky, and not really enough chips behind to justify the move.
Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question. Quote
09-20-2013 , 11:16 PM
First, this spot is highly dependent on how often you think V is cbetting. If he high bets at a huge frequency then the bet on the turn is fine. However after his call OTT I would be inclined to give up since you are in a tricky situation. Either he cbet the flop and connected on the turn and is check calling to see if you fire again. Or he actually connected on the flop and calls the turn thinking you are trying to take him off a hand (and does V even think at this level).

Secondly, if the V is a strictly TAG player this could be a situation even with this small starting stack where it is +EV. However, with that being said at 1/2, 1/3 there are ALOT more postions where you can set yourself up to gain +EV than this one. In other words why put yourself in a tough situation to extract a minimal amount of +EV when there are leaks all over the place at these limits.
Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question. Quote
09-20-2013 , 11:49 PM
TBH, this isn't even reasonably close. With IO of only 15, this is a super easy fold without a read that this is a huge fit or fold villain that you're willing to float and push off on the turn.

I'll note that a TAG's range crushes this flop in the UTG. Should be a c/f. After that, if you want to bluff off your stack, that's up to you, but that's what it is going to take to win this hand.
Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question. Quote
09-21-2013 , 12:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
TBH, this isn't even reasonably close. With IO of only 15, this is a super easy fold without a read that this is a huge fit or fold villain that you're willing to float and push off on the turn.

I'll note that a TAG's range crushes this flop in the UTG. Should be a c/f. After that, if you want to bluff off your stack, that's up to you, but that's what it is going to take to win this hand.
TPTK+, bc he shows down strong hands an overwhelming majority of the time
Semi-Hypothetical Float/Barreling/Bluff Raising question. Quote
09-21-2013 , 09:00 PM
The problem with this hand is that you're even playing it in this spot. Calling pf here is a big leak in your game. This whole hand reeks of FPS to me
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