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River thin value sizing River thin value sizing

09-08-2018 , 08:17 PM
2/5 - Hero 100bb eff. Villians unknown
Hero with QQ in HJ.
UTG, MP and LJ limp. Hero raises to $8bb. BB, UTG and LJ call

(33bb) Flop J72
BB check, UTG leads 10bb. LJ folds, Hero calls, BB folds

(53bb) Turn K
check, check

(53bb) River 3
UTG checks, Hero bets 10bb

Villian quickly calls which leads me to believe my sizing was too small on the river. Thoughts on this hand and also what is your thought process for thin value sizing in general?
River thin value sizing Quote
09-08-2018 , 08:23 PM
Anywhere up to a 1/2PSB it's good for value. If have give around what you very if I was going to bet.

Pretty much only a K is calling so I feel like a check is normal better in this spot. A very OTT would've been preferred if we were going to bet river unimproved.
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09-09-2018 , 05:54 AM
IMO you should be getting 3 streets of value with this hand... sometimes you will run into his king high flushdraw that paired up but other than that and KJ the king is a blank. given that he checked OTT there is no reason to believe he has you beat and i would bet turn and river charging his draws and most likely Jx holdings... I would go 2/3 to 3/4 pot on both turn and river.

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River thin value sizing Quote
09-09-2018 , 11:18 AM
When V leads flop for 1/3rd pot I think he mostly has a draw or weak top pair or even 7X. He's probably trying to set the price to get to show down or keep it cheap to make a strong hand. Sometimes it will be a suck bet with a 2-pair+ but rarely because people seem to love trapping. You'll notice some players will always bet their big hands big for fear of you drawing out on them while others routinely trap even on dangerously wet boards - this knowledge will help you interpret lead bets.

Anyways, here with little in the way of reads I assume he's weak/drawing and I'll raise flop to charge the draws and get him to hopefully call with dominated JX. Stack to pot ratio is already lowish at 3:1 so sizing the raise is a bit awkward. I don't want to go so big I shut out all his weaker hands and draws and isolate myself against sets.

Maybe I'd raise to 25bb, something he doesn't really make a mistake calling with a draw but that he can also mistakenly call with dominated pairs. This will leave us with 66bb behind and a pot of 83bb on turn. Depending on the turn and our read on our opponent we can either shove, bet like 30bb or check it back.

So having raised flop and got to the K turn with 66bb behind I consider how the K hits our and our opponent's range. It hits him when he holds KJ or KXdd and it gives him a gutshot to go with his FD when he holds ATdd.

We're improved when we raised flop with KXdd. We're relatively indifferent when we raised flop with AA or a set. It gives us extra fold equity when we raised flop with AXdd and added outs when we raised flop with Suited Broadway in diamonds. When we have KK the turned set reduces our value as it decreases chance V will call turn with JX.

The hands we could raise flop with that lose relative hand strength and value on this turn are QQ and AJ. I think betting them again on turn over reps our strength and gets us into tricky river spots with very little stack behind in a big pot. If I knew V definitely has a draw obviously I'd bet them. Likewise if I knew V was a station who would call turn with JX regardless us betting the K turn then I would bet.

This is important - regardless the K doesn't hit thaaat much of V's continue flop range it increases their perception of our strength when we bet that turn. If he has JX and the turn is a brick and we bet he can figure we are bluffing with diamonds or have a weaker JX than them that they beat at show down. Thus they can call a modest bet quite happily. When we bet the K turn they have to start wondering - did we hit the K? Do we have AA or a set? Then they might be able to find a fold with their JX.

So against an unknown or relatively balanced player I think I'd check back the turn with QQ and AJ and use them as bluff catchers on some appropriately non-diamond non-Ace rivers.

Of course if we check back turn and they check a blank river we're back in your situation from original post - whether and how much to thin value bet. Like trucdouf I believe maximum of 1/2 pot works best. 1/3 to 1/4 pot may work too but might induce bluff raises from some villains so be prepared to handle those appropriately. If you really aren't sure what villain is capable of in terms of river X/raising I think it's perfectly ok to check back river. Yes you possibly give up a little value but you definitely avoid losing any extra chips and you guarantee yourself a bit of extra info on their hand at showdown.

Last edited by Ragequit99; 09-09-2018 at 11:47 AM.
River thin value sizing Quote
09-09-2018 , 03:51 PM
River bet is probably slightly small, but I like going small for value here since we rarely take this line as a bluff (call flop, check turn, bet river). The only hand I can really think that does this is, like, A2 maybe which we probably don't raise preflop. Brings up a good theory question of what our range should be on this river.

Anyway, well played I think. You could go 15 bbs, but anything around 1/4 pot seems good.
River thin value sizing Quote
09-09-2018 , 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragequit99
Anyways, here with little in the way of reads I assume he's weak/drawing and I'll raise flop to charge the draws and get him to hopefully call with dominated JX. Stack to pot ratio is already lowish at 3:1 so sizing the raise is a bit awkward. I don't want to go so big I shut out all his weaker hands and draws and isolate myself against sets.
My general philosophy in these spots is to consider the suits of our hand to choose between raise or call. I think having the Q means this is better as a call. 1. he's less likely to be bluffing with a flush draw so he has more 1 pair hands or hands that beat us. 2. We have more equity against hands that would 3-bet us on the flop but slowdown if the turn was a diamond, allowing us to realize our equity. 3. The times he does have a flush draw, he has 1 less out.

So I can definitely get behind a raise/fold with black queens.
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