Hero ($400) is early 20's male just sat at table 20 mins ago & is a reg at this casino, but only 1 players knows me.

V ($1k+) is late 30's white male. Covers the world and has been somewhat active. He was talking about a big hand I missed where here folded QQ on a J high board to a turn raise in a 2k pot.

OTTH

I flat in the BB with AsTs from a $15 dollar open from mid position over 2 limpers (V was one of the limpers)
4 callers.

Flop ($60)
2s 5s 4d

V leads for $40 3rd to act everyone folds I call.

Turn ($140)
10h

I ch/call $120

River ($380)
9c

He pretty much Insta shoves... Puke

Fold pre

You only had $225 remaining on the river so he bet a bit more than 1/2 pot. You have to be good 27% of the time to make the call. In general this is a fold but I'd actually spend a decent amount of time trying to get a read off my opponent in this spot. You only beat a bluff or a blowup.

I don't really like the call preflop with two limpers waiting to act behind you and you with the worst absolute and relative position in the hand. Relative position is bad because on a lot of c-bettable boards you and the limpers will check to the raiser expecting him to cbet. After the cbet you have to act first before the limpers respond the cbet so you have the least possible information with which to respond to a cbet. That's an awful spot to voluntarily put yourself in.

I might be tempted to squeeze this hand if raiser is known to open his range when attempting to isolate a limper. My normal action would be to fold though.

Having called and facing the donk bet on the flop I'm immediately thinking bettor has overpair+ You hold two spades including the Ace so aggressively played FDs are less likely than normal.

The bet on the turn after the T falls rules out any overpair <JJ and the limp preflop rules out JJ+ so I put villain on 2-pair+ on turn and suspect set or A3s as most likely EP limp/call preflop hands.

Since you are frequently facing set+ your pair of Tens are no good to you and an A or T on the river often won't save you. You therefore only have your flush outs and Villain has denied you correct drawing odds with his turn bet.

For me you needed to fold the turn. I'd definitely fold the river despite the tempting pot odds on offer.

Just another one of seemingly endless examples in these forums where OOP leads to puke.

Note to self: keeping shrinking your OOP / blinds calling range. Raise with premiums, squeeze when all conditions are right, set mine small to medium PPs, and fold, fold, fold, fold, fold. I'm slowly getting there, many thanks to reading all these gross OOP spots on 2+2.

Knowing that we will most likely be multiway and price is relatively cheap (albeit OOP), I also flat preflop. ETA: Although with no other callers yet, and OOP, and only a maximum 4way pot, I can certainly get behind a fold as others have said.

Even though we've flopped a monster hand (nut flush draw, two overs, and a gutshot), I think I'm cool with just check/evaluating the flop and then just calling. If there hadda been a weak donk and some calls I might attempt to get all the money in now if possible. But instead the Villain donked in a 4way pot, which to me screams strength (as if he's cool with getting it in with preflop raiser). I guess it really depends on what we make of the flop donk, but I'm cool just calling it here (epecially since we'll be left hanging OOP on the turn if we whiff, plus if we get it all-in with this guy on the flop we're most likely only drawing to our flush/gutshot outs).

Turn is pretty tough, imo. This guy has shown he can make good folds (folding the QQ overpair on a J high board earlier). We need 3:1 odds and we're only getting a little over 2:1 odds, so we're going to have to make up a bet on the river. But our gutshot puts 4-to-a-straight on board, and it kinda does look like we are on the A high flush draw. I guess there's still a slight chance we're ahead, but it seems a little unlikely, and our A/T outs are probably no good at this point (and possibly one of our flush outs). I think turn is pretty close.

I'd probably fold the river. We basically have to hope he's barrelling a big draw (76ss is the only one that really comes to mind), but I'm guessing he takes a free card on the turn a lot with those.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Your not being consistent. First you consider an overpair. Then when the 10 comes it has to be 2 pair plus turning into a set on the river.

All the guy had done is double barrelled. Doesn't necessarily mean a very strong hand.

I never consider folding the turn here. We have the NFD gutshot and have just hit TPTK. Personally I would have played it more aggressively before the river.

The cbet doesn't mean a thing.

The double barrel could be trying to buy the pot, hit the turn, think he's good when he's not or thinks your drawing.

The river you'd think your behind and a triple barrel is never great but he could have got carried away and now is hoping you have that missed draw.

If you'd hadn't played it passively we'd have more of an idea.

Missed the fact he donked instead of cbet. Still think we should play more aggressive. Probably call flop, lead turn.

Because V limped, it seems like he would be more likely to have a small pocket pair that made a set. But he could also have small cards that flopped an open ended straight draw with a pair, like 35, 45, etc. I may call if I have some more information on V. Is he kind of person who would double barrel a pair + OESD and then bluff the river?

How are we not c/r this flop to $120?! V has shown he's capable of making big laydowns (which is good because we just have A high), and maybe is steaming enough to put it in super bad against us. Sure, V can have a set or a straight, but the times he decides to play 67, or any flush draw, we get it in as a HUGE favorite!! Even if V has a set we're not in terrible shape. The worst hand for us he could have is a straight, in which case all our spade outs are clean (discounting 63ss I suppose).

I'm going $120 otf, $250 ott.

As you played it, river is a fold, and you probably lost much less than I would have, but maybe V has 67ss and you make a huge equity mistake.

I missed the fact you saw that you missed that and spent 5mins pointlessly writing an over long re-explanation of my previous post

I like fold preflop, but reading your post and the others I think, having called preflop I like calling the flop then leading the turn about 1/2 to 3/4 pot intending to pot control our top pair while keeping it cheap to draw at a hand that beats an overpair or better.

If our turn lead gets raised I guess we can profitably shove then?

If our turn lead gets raised I guess we can profitably shove then?[/QUOTE]

How can shoving after we donk/raised OTT with no FE and obviously against a much stronger range yearn a profit?

I played the hand "passively" because

A) I didn't think he had a fold button at any point.

B) there is some worse hands in his range that he can be either over valuing and/or semi bluffing with.

C) once the turn 10 hits the turn I felt I had considerable showdown equity and c/r would essentially turn my hand into a bluff and I expect to only get called when I'm behind. And leading the turn allows villain to raise me not let me realise my equity...

I hoped someone else would do the maths on turn donk getting raised because I'm on my phone so can't work it out.

Anyway, if we assume you dont have the equity to call anything but a minraise of a smallish ($80?) turn donk and you have no fold equity then it just becomes mostly a b/f on the turn but you call a raise if odds are OK.

Downside is if villain reads it as a blocking bet and shoves a wider range with lots of bluffs. Though if he did that you'd then probably have the equity to call... It is too complicated for me to think about at 1am!

How can shoving after we donk/raised OTT with no FE and obviously against a much stronger range yearn a profit?

I played the hand "passively" because

A) I didn't think he had a fold button at any point.

B) there is some worse hands in his range that he can be either over valuing and/or semi bluffing with.

C) once the turn 10 hits the turn I felt I had considerable showdown equity and c/r would essentially turn my hand into a bluff and I expect to only get called when I'm behind. And leading the turn allows villain to raise me not let me realise my equity...[/QUOTE]

So there are worse hands in his range that are over valuing and/or semi bluffing and yet he doesn't have a fold button. Then you can play more aggressive.

I just think because you've let him use the bet bet bet line you are just calling to hit which will often get recognised and then not get paid. Where as if you'd have been more aggressive you could get paid when it hit and you would have an idea how strong your TPTK is and whether it is good enough. Your giving yourself oneway to win.

I'm with GG, might be worth a call pre. Depends on who is in the hand.

Like the check pre. Once it comes back to hero, you gotta stop and think how you're gonna make money against this villain. Depends on villain's betting range, and how you feel about your outs, and how much you gotta pay to play.

Don't really understand the puke OTR. You figure this guy is a brain-dead, looney-tunes aggro who bets ATC all the way to the river, and OTF you have 18 outs that get paid off every single time, and you got one; what's the problem?

Now, if this guy is actually a tough player who uses aggression and good bet-sizing to relentlessly punish people who play speculative cards OOP, I can see the puke.

So I'll modify my position. I like a call pre, as long as this villain isn't in the hand.

I probably just shove turn and don't really care whether he calls or folds. Flatting turn and x/c'ing blank rivers doesn't seem to do us much good considering that it's really hard to extract on the river when our hand improves.

I'm totally fine with the preflop flat here.

U r so strong on turn. Perfect to set up a check shove with given stack size.

My experience at these games tells me these players bet 80% pot with mediocre holdings. I'm expecting a lot of 33 or 86ss, the range you crush the most. His range is more or less capped and if he has 54o u have equity.

As played check call river and stack those chips.