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River shove facing 2 opponents River shove facing 2 opponents

05-27-2014 , 08:42 AM
Im really new to poker. But something bothered me quite earlier on what would be the correct approach in thinking in facing this type of situations in a live game. So here's what the hand looks like

heres the a rough estimate on the stack sizes

SB: 40BB
BB: 80BB
Hero: 80BB
UTG: 60BB
MP: 50BB
CO: 65BB
BN: 120B

I have Kh 5h but decided to limp which is I know is wrong but I havent really played a hand almost an hour so I was a little bit bored. MP raises to 3BB BTN calls SB calls BB calls I call flop comes:

pot: 12BB
Kc 5d Qs

SB checks BB checks Hero bets 8BB MP folds Button calls SB folds BB calls

pot: 36BB
turn: 10s

BB checks Hero bets 21.5 BB BTN calls BB calls.

pot: 100.5BB
River: 4c

BB checks Hero checks BTN shoves remaining 50BB stack and BB calls!
Hero:????????

I mean I folded I dont have anyreads yet whatsoever on both players. But how often I am good to call here on this spot? certainly a set of Q's or 10's would raise preflop as well as when it happens on flop and turn. So its quite possible that one player has a set of 5's? but highly unlikely since im holding the other 5. So the theyre remaining range would only then consist of a straight or a better 2 pair. How often should I call the shove for it to become profitable? I know im being laid I think the proper odds to call like 4-1. But I was thinking BTN would shove only with straight sets or better? So what's the best way that I should have played this hand?
River shove facing 2 opponents Quote
05-27-2014 , 09:07 AM
pre-flop play is almost never wrong, it just depends on your style
could definitely see a winning player limp a hand like this
although it's really, really loose
you should probably fold or at least raise with some kind of plan

flop & turn look fine to me, might bet a little more on the flop since there's 4 players

river is definitely a call
there's a bunch of missed straights in villain's range, weaker kings & queens and a few missed flush draws

here's the final range I put villain on: (we have 71% against it) assuming villain likes to bluff a lot of missed draws
TT+,55,AJs+,K9s+,QTs+,J9s+,AsTs,Qs9s,Qc9c,Ts9s,Qs8 s,As5s,ATo+,K9o+,Q9o+,JTo

if we assume villain never bluffs we get another range:
TT,55,AKs,AJs,KQs,KTs,QTs,J9s,AKo,AJo,KTo+,QTo (we're still 39% against this range)

We're getting 1-3 pot odds so we only need 33% chance to win to call, making it an easy call even when villain is on a really tight range
If we add a few bluffs to his range the call becomes even easier.

(Hope this stuff is correct because I don't seem to be very good at it :P)
River shove facing 2 opponents Quote
05-27-2014 , 09:18 AM
pre-flop play can most certainly be wrong - there are hands that flat out won't profit long term based on the conditions (position, table, etc). This is one of them. FOLD PRE.

If you can't deal with boredom then your poker career will be a bust. That's especially true if you get bored after "almost an hour". I went through a 6 hour session just yesterday where I got dealt six-deuce 9 separate times, and AK once.

These "big little" hands are really difficult to play when they flop 2 pair. Higher two pairs are always lurking, plus you run the risk of getting counterfeited also (if river comes Q or T).
River shove facing 2 opponents Quote
05-27-2014 , 09:34 AM
I mean the bet sizing on the turn back then was large enough so i could put the button all in on the river. But my decision making was messed up when the BB blind also calls on the turn and definitely on the river. BB was rather loose saw a couple of hands with marginal kickers but then I thought he would only call the river with 2 pair set or better? If the BB folded I thought it would be an easy call for me. Definitely when the BB calls I was already doubting the strength of my cards. Btw i know that it was a -EV preflop but decided to limp anyways so theres that. How much does my equity change when facing 2 opponents on these type of situations?
River shove facing 2 opponents Quote
05-27-2014 , 09:47 AM
Assuming the button is a decent player would he move all in with missed draws with two players left to act after him? I was certainly not putting the big blind on a missed straight or flush draw when he called. Also what does my range look like especially to the button on why he moved all in? perhaps only weaker 10's Q's pair K's but they cant be thinking of AK's or AQ's since those hands would certainly raise most of the time UTG.
River shove facing 2 opponents Quote
05-27-2014 , 09:50 AM
If BTN is a decent player he definitely has a few bluffs in his range, probably not too many.
Doesn't really matter though, we're getting odds against all his value bets too.
River shove facing 2 opponents Quote
05-27-2014 , 09:56 AM
What does the calling range of BB look like? If it was heads up with the button It was definitely an easy call but this is one of those situations where i have no idea on what to do. would he call with TPTK on this spot?
River shove facing 2 opponents Quote
05-27-2014 , 10:12 AM
Preflop is almost certainly wrong, you won't ever see winning players open limping K5s UTG on these stacks.

As played this is probably a call.

The button shouldn't really have bluffs on this run out, a lot of the hands that continue on the flop that would end up needing to bluff on the river contain a T, and live players don't like to turn pairs in to a bluff in spots like this, they tend to just show it down. And, he's got 2 opponents in the hand both with less than half the pot left on the river, where top pair hasn't change. I don't think a good player will ever bluff here because it's a suicidal spot to bluff and good players don't like lighting money on fire.

That being said, he could legitimately be value betting some worse hands that he thinks are good... AK/KJ/QT come immediately to mind. And our price is enhanced by the blind who we usually are beating... unless he has AJ and turned the nuts (and is slowplaying), most better 2 pairs/sets probably raise the turn to "protect their hand". So a call is probably right but it's not a fist pump imo.

Note to the OP: Something important to work on is observing your opponents. Any time you're not in a hand, watch diligently as hands play out, and practice ranging your opponents. You'll find that you don't get bored so quickly when your brain is actively engaged in this way, and when you get in a multi-way pot 1 hour+ in, you won't have no reads whatsoever.
River shove facing 2 opponents Quote
05-27-2014 , 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelv1nG
What does the calling range of BB look like? If it was heads up with the button It was definitely an easy call but this is one of those situations where i have no idea on what to do. would he call with TPTK on this spot?
BB will have Kx or a lot, or sometimes a really bad river stubborn with QJ. It's possible he's beating us but not probable imo.
River shove facing 2 opponents Quote
05-27-2014 , 03:04 PM
I must be the only one, but I'm folding here. I just can't see beating two people in this spot. KQ, KT, AJ, J9, are such common limping hands for so many players. I'm surprised nobody raised the turn, but with your doing the betting, maybe they just wanted to let you continue and keep the other guy in?

I'm sorry if this turned out to be a bad fold, but I'm taking notes. If they both had worse, you should be able to recoup you money plus some. I hope this is a lesson to fold K5 pre-flop
River shove facing 2 opponents Quote
05-27-2014 , 05:15 PM
It's ironic this is even a question tbh. We have less than a half pot bet left otr, and a blank has rolled off. Random live players tend to be showdown monkeys, why are we offering them a free one? I think we should bet the river all day long in this spot. They will pay with their Kx and maybe some worse because the pot his huge now and they don't have much left... checking river leaves money on the table here in the long run.
River shove facing 2 opponents Quote
05-28-2014 , 12:02 AM
glutenfree, youre probably right I think indeed it was wrong decision if I look at the equity and overall a terrible mistake. I was just uncomfortable in those spots with 2 guys. thanks for the help. Javanewt that was what I was thinking when the btn shoves and the BB calls it could be one of those hands from the two but oh well now I realized should be a bet anyways on the river.
River shove facing 2 opponents Quote

      
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