$1/$3 $130 effective stacks

V seems very clueless. Had a hand where he called turn and river bets with Q6 and no pairs. Saw him betting for value multiple streets with AK no pair and then acting shocked when someone beat him with a pair. Don't really no how to classify him other than just a clueless regular.

OTTH

Hero BB (56o)
4 or 5 limpers.
Hero: check

Pot: $15
Flop: 35K rainbow
checks to V
V: $12
Hero: call
Everyone else folds.

I called here because I knew this guy could spew his stack with ATC.

Pot: $39
Turn: 6
Hero: checks
V: $20
Hero: raise to $40
V: call

I min raised here thinking once he calls he is almost never folding the river unless he is on a draw and misses, but I don't know what draws he has that bet flop.

Pot: $119 (V has around $75 behind)
River: 7
Hero: ??

I think against this player I have to stick to my plan and shove, but I wasn't sure in the moment.

i wouldn't shove all in for a few reasons. Mostly you want to keep him in the game. If you take all his chips he may leave or he may fold. If you bet 50 dollars he will have a little left when he looses. Then he may stick around and add a few more chips to his short stack. When one looses every chip they sometimes feel more embarrassed and leave. Many semi pro winning players try to extract every penny they can from the fish. But in my experience this is the worst thing you can do. I have seen fish get up and switch tables or refuse to sit down at a table with a particular player. Also they may start to improve their play or learn to play back at you. keep the game friendly. If he has something like AK he may shove all in anyway and you will still get all his chips. I often call a fish or min raise a fish knowing they likely have the best hand. At small stakes I don't mind giving a few dollars back to the fish once in a while to keep the game friendly. I find it a great investment towards keeping my table image loose. Fish love playing with me. Best to take their money slow and give them several hours of enjoyment for their money. That is the way they think. Had they played golf today instead they would have dropped 100. So what is the difference? But if you bust them in thirty minutes they may not come back as often.

Open fold, he has J4

40bb deep just get it in and say "wow nh" when he turns over J4.

This sort of villain will occasionally show up with a better hand that they played badly because they play everything badly. A lot of these loose fish there is just a limit to how much you can read them because they don't really understand the value of their own hands to begin with.

I would have raise to $50 on the turn because it makes a river shove easier. As played I like betting half the pot and pretend you didn't realize it isn't all of villain's stack. For that type of villain it makes a call easier and gives him a reason to stick around if he looses.

Check/minraising the turn is painful

If you're doing it because you think you're ahead, go for more. As it is, he's getting a laughable price with anything to continue.

If you don't think that, then don't do it

Very interesting take. I never thought of the keeping people around idea.

[QUOTE=tdammon;56966381Pot: $119 (V has around $75 behind)
River: 7
Hero: ??

I think against this player I have to stick to my plan and shove, but I wasn't sure in the moment.[/QUOTE]

Will he call a shove with a complete miss? No.
Does his weakest made hand here beat yours? Yes
Will he fold $75 to win $270? Probably not. He could easily have a weak king or 88 or something here.

You shove, he'll fold any hand you beat anyways and call with any hand that beats you.

Incidentally, betting with no pair when big overpairs are in your range isn't bad. He easily could have been shocked when someone called with a small pair when it seemed like he had JJ-AA

Jam river, this player type will call you with top pair every time. If he has a better hand at least the money is going to be in play

Grunching ...

It's important to know the positions of your opponents. While you might be right in ranging the V on his flop action, you still have to worry about 3 others behind you. Theoretically, I think it's a fold with stacks this shallow.

AP, I'd X river.

Turn - get it in based on V descript. He's also not folding 4X.

I strongly feel continuing otf is a serious leak. Navigating limped pots is an important skill and we should start by over folding meh hands multi way oop. Especially to this sizing.

I agree you should over fold OOP with many weak made hands on the flop in a multi-way pot especially when others are left to act after you. However, in this hand history he had already called and hit two pair on the turn, so I did not feel commenting on his flop play was the issue to discuss. But to defend him, his hand did have some back door potential and since all the other players had folded, It is not wrong to make a call here against a weak player, especially if his call closed the action. Also, if it was the late position player who bet the flop, he may not have any pair at all, so we need to fight for pots especially against weak opponents who fold too much with hands that have some good pot equity. Also weak players are less likely to trap with a check raise or bluff with a check raise. For all these reasons, I would defend his decision to call a fifteen dollar flop bet with his implied odds when he hits or when he can often bluff the weak player off a hand. We do need to know how to exploit the fish. In this case it sounds like he is a calling station. So bluffing a calling station is not a profitable play. If we don't improve on the turn, we should likely fold to a turn bet in this situation.

^^^^^^

You will almost always have some backdoor potential so that's kind of a mute point. The other players folded after he called so definitely not closing the action. We have no reason to believe he is betting with no pair and we absolutely do not need to fight for this pot. The idea is to win the most money, not the highest number of pots.

Not sure i read his hand summary the same way that we can really discern the sequence of players actions. But after re reading it, he does say hero calls and the others fold. I did not necessarily take that to be a precise sequence. But even if it is, what that suggests is it checked around to the button or last position player and then hero called. That is still a reasonable call because the others have already checked once - so they likely do not have a strong hand. The last to act will often bet with anything because everyone else checked. So his bet does not mean much. The overcall by the BB now looks a little stronger and those in the middle are forced to fold middle or bottom pair because they are now squeezed between the two ends putting money in the pot. This is a reasonable play. It is difficult for middle position players to play if they do not have a premium made hand in these situations. Now, if one of them were to call behind, then the BB or hero is pretty much done unless he improves on the turn, which he does in this situation. So I still say nothing wrong with this call if you think it was the last to act who opened the betting.

If the second to act opened, then obviously the 3rd and 4th must have folded and the BB would have closed the action in that situation. So only if the 3rd player opened and 4th folded do you have a more clear fold because in that situation the opener is more likely to be strong and you still have action behind you. Even in this scenario you can still call once in a while as the middle player will likely check-fold. But you are going to have to improve to continue in this last situation. So probably better to fold and look for a more favorable flop.

I'm fine with preflop.

Flop call is dicey. Every hand we can improve to is a middling hand that has poor RIO against hands that could be crushing us, we still have the world to react behind us, and some of our outs bring in a draw. I mean if this guy is going to hurp durp off his stack every time then I guess I can't hate too much, but in general it is very meh calling with an extremely weak hand + no draw in a multiway pot.

I just donk the turn because I don't want to risk it checking thru (which will then require us to make a 3x PSB bet on the river to play for stacks). As played I'm cool with the check/raise to setup a play for stacks on the river. ETA: Although as others have mentioned I probably size a little more to make the river shove just that much easier, and against really clueless players a jam here probably ain't horrible either at this small stack depth.

Against a clueless player I think we have to just shove this horrible river and live with results. He sounds like the type of player who could call with worse.

GcluelessNLnoobG

But wait, If we are worried that our making two-pair on the turn will also fill a straight, that means we need to be betting more with our pair on the flop. This is the problem with slow playing multi-way pots and getting 4 calls on the turn. Much better to check raise even with middle or bottom pair that has back door potential. Try to push out the draws and keep in only the person who has top pair but not much chance to improve. You can often steal the pot from the top pair with a turn bet as the turn will bring many scare cards - overcards, bottom pair, straights, flushes, etc.

If you see monsters under your bed, you will never become a great poker player. If you check raise with your middle pair and back door draws, even top pair has to worry you have an over-pair, two pair, set, two over cards, or a strong draw. What will they do when you fire another bullet on the turn? Hopefully they will call when you make your two pair and you bet.

Again it is all about knowing how best to exploit your fish. I like calling here if you have good implied odds meaning your opponent will call off a large percentage of chips with just one pair. How would you have played with an over pair or AK in this situation? Again, if you think others will call behind you if you call then it is probably better to fold or check-raise on the flop.

Anyone who is folding this flop vs. this V is insane. The guy called w/ Q6 no pair and bet w/ AK no pair. A pair is gold. Two pair is the nuts. If V got lucky this time, more power to him. Bet $50 on the river, call his last $25.

It doesn't matter what happens in this hand, either this is the type of player to buy back in or he isn't.

We have second pair + no draw + some of outs complete a draw in a eleventeen way pot OOP (some are treating this like we're HU against the villain; we're not). We should mainly just check/fold. Check/raising is way overplaying our hand (mainly folding out worse and getting called by better). Attempting to build a pot against a shortstacked fish who may have TP (and is thus way ahead) and won't fold is suicide.

GcluelessNLnoobG

+1 to this. Yeah against a lot of players we may well fold this, but given what we know about villain this seems a no-brainer call - Most hands miss most flops. We are nearly always ahead here. Yeah, we have to be careful if we don't improve, particularly since we have no way of ranging villain, but we should not be so scared of that that we fold flop.

Sure he may have top pair, but given everything we know about him that's only a small part of his range. Sure against Mr. OMC Rock, we need to be really worried, and even against a regular Loose Passive fish we should be worried, but this guy is completely clueless fish - TP may literally be less than 20% of his range right here.

+1

First off, we're not HU against the overvalueing fish; we're in a *six* way pot. Admittedly, it is a little unclear where Villain is and how many players we still have to react to the action after us.

Secondly, we're not even getting that great of odds to stack him. Assuming 6way, if we assume he bet $12 from a $127 stack into $18 pot, that means we're calling $12 to win $127 + $18 - $10 (the rake/BBJ/tip in my game) = $135, so about 11:1. I'm assuming we're not continuing if we don't hit one of our 5 outs (or are we planning on calling the turn with what will likely be 3rd pair NK?), which is 8.5:1. And some of the time we hit and aren't good and get stacked ourselves, and some of the time we hit and don't get his stack. Even HU it's a meh call (although I wouldn't hate on it as much).

ETA: And any horrible plan on not busting him when we do hit means we don't even have the IO to continue (given the already very thinness of it I showed above).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Math is moot vs. this guy. Sometime you just have to adjust to your villains. Yes, another player might come along, but they already checked. If they do come along, we adjust our plan, which is to stack this guy with a pair of 5s -- the 6 is gravy.

If he gets lucky this time, so be it.

This ^

For like the 900th time, we don't have to play for stacks every time we hit, and it doesn't making calling the flop wrong just because we don't have gin. The guy is a spaz who can't believe he will be called down by middle pair when he shows aggression. If he gets lucky, just do what normal people do and pay your cellphone bill with dollars, instead of poker chips.

My bad, I didn't realize our plan was to stack this guy with a pair of fives UI OOP when he bets into eleventeen people on the flop and continues on later streets.

Gitsgoodtohaveaplanbutbettertohaveaplanthatisgood, imoG