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Old 08-20-2018, 10:19 AM   #1
shorn7
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River Play

Game is $1/$2 NL, $300 max. Table is average, a mix of OMC's and loose passives. Hero is most aggressive at the table by far, doing most of the pre-flop raising and the only 3 bettor pre in the 4 + hours. Hero's stack is $600 and he covers all villains.

Primary V in this hand is a YAG. Mega loose passive and will chase with any piece of the flop and any draws for multiple streets. Plays any two suited and has shown down some 4 and 5 gap two pair hands for winners on the river. This V has $195 total.

Other V's are not that relevant to the spot in question.

OTTH

Straddled pot to $5 (UTG). Two limps to Hero in MP who also limps with 33. I didn't see any sense in raising here and bloating a pot versus what would likely be multiple opponents, so I limped and planned to call a raise if I had proper set value odds. V limps in CU, blinds complete and straddler checks. 7 way to the flop.

Flop ($32 after rake)

TQ3

Checked to Hero and I bet $15. I sized smaller here because other than KJ, the flop is pretty dry so I wanted to get value from Tx, Qx etc. and not chase anyone out just yet. Also thought if this looked weak enough, someone might raise a hand like KQ or QJ and then I could potentially play for stacks later. Thoughts? Anyone lead for more like $25 here?

V calls behind me as does straddler and one limper. So 4 ways to the turn:

Turn: ($90 after max rake)

TQ32

Checked to me and I bet $65 (sizing OK? Larger or smaller anyone?). V calls quickly and without much though and other two fold. So, I put him on a range of KJ, Tx, Qx, QT and perhaps backdoor spades with or without a pair.

River ($220)

TQ327

Hero is first to act and V has $110 behind. Q here is what is best...leading small, shoving, or checking to allow V to bet his whole range (missed draws and any hands he deems as value hands) as my assumption is that I am never folding here no matter what I choose (anyone disagree?).

Thanks,

Shorn
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Old 08-20-2018, 10:36 AM   #2
KID777777
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Re: River Play

I would've made it at least $25 there on the flop to build it up. Plenty of Qx, Tx, pair + bdsd (eg JT) that any of the 7 guys could call with
Turn sizing looks good imo, and just jam river given the loose/passive read imo
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Old 08-20-2018, 11:21 AM   #3
donkatruck
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Re: River Play

Since V's most likely holding is a missed straight draw, followed by an unlikely pair+back door flush and we are never folding optimum strategy is to check and hope to induce. Shoving is going to fold his whiffed straight. Shoving may get a crying call from Tx or a weak Qx but no guarantee.

My experience says V is more likely to have whiffed straight so I check.

If V backed into a flush is bad but of no consequence to the decision making of the hand.
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:41 PM   #4
c0rnBr34d
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Re: River Play

I love this line so far. In a multi way pot the $15 bet is also more likely to get raised in addition to getting more speculative calls. The turn bet is also good although with 4 still in and the back door draw I may have nudged up just a tad from 3/4 pot to $70 (insignificant). Since you have described V as passive I'm not checking this river. Passive players can also snap overcall with what they consider a bluff catcher. I wouldn't take weak Qx out of Vs range. Passive V will check behind all 1 pair hands and maybe even 2 pair now that the flush has come in. Have we seen V call off his stack before? Although most would probably go for the whole $110. I would probably size down to $80 or even repeat the turn bet to try to get Qx to call.
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:56 PM   #5
Garick
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Re: River Play

I make it $20 OTF, but that's nit-picking. I love the turn sizing, and I bet river, as most LLSNL Vs check back river way too often, rarely bluffing or thin-value betting.

For half pot, I shove river every single time. I don't see anything calling a smaller bet but folding that. His calling range should be pretty sizing inelastic here.
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Old 08-20-2018, 03:13 PM   #6
shorn7
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Re: River Play

Thanks for all the thoughts guys. Still working on proper sizing in certain spots so always welcome the critiques.

So Hero was torn between allowing V to bluff his whole range or shoving with half pot left because so many V's are showdown monkeys and I did not want to lose value. Still not sure what is best versus V's entire range OTR (which as I said was very wide), so I chose to shove for his $110 and he snap called (T5). Result is not at all relevant as the whole point of the post was to figure out how to get him to commit his stack with the highest % of his total range and I am thinking that maybe checking is better as it allows him to bluff whereas when I shove, I lose those parts.

Real Q is the difference between how much I lose in eliminating his bluffs and how much I lose in him checking behind hands that he might call with. Not sure which is higher still but going to noodle on it some more.

Thanks again.

Shorn
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Old 08-20-2018, 03:23 PM   #7
Garick
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Re: River Play

Do you think he's betting T5 there if you check? I seriously doubt it.

Passive folks aren't know for bluffing missed draws much, and the basically never value bet thinn/turn SDV in to a bluff, so I think betting does much better against his range.
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Old 08-20-2018, 03:29 PM   #8
shorn7
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Re: River Play

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
Do you think he's betting T5 there if you check? I seriously doubt it.

Passive folks aren't know for bluffing missed draws much, and the basically never value bet thinn/turn SDV in to a bluff, so I think betting does much better against his range.
Ten High flush (runner runner)? Yes he is shoving....
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Old 08-20-2018, 03:41 PM   #9
c0rnBr34d
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Re: River Play

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Originally Posted by shorn7 View Post
Thanks for all the thoughts guys. Still working on proper sizing in certain spots so always welcome the critiques.

So Hero was torn between allowing V to bluff his whole range or shoving with half pot left because so many V's are showdown monkeys and I did not want to lose value. Still not sure what is best versus V's entire range OTR (which as I said was very wide), so I chose to shove for his $110 and he snap called (T5). Result is not at all relevant as the whole point of the post was to figure out how to get him to commit his stack with the highest % of his total range and I am thinking that maybe checking is better as it allows him to bluff whereas when I shove, I lose those parts.

Real Q is the difference between how much I lose in eliminating his bluffs and how much I lose in him checking behind hands that he might call with. Not sure which is higher still but going to noodle on it some more.

Thanks again.

Shorn
Agree result isn't very relevant. I'm just skeptical at the idea of over targeting missed draws in Vs range and counting on a passive player to turn his hand into a bluff OTR. I'd rather target the middling hands and try to give them a good price to Hero call but maybe the turn sizing folds out more of that range than the drawing hands. Let me know if you come up with anything definitive, I'm always open for new ideas as well.
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Old 08-20-2018, 03:58 PM   #10
shorn7
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Re: River Play

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Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
Agree result isn't very relevant. I'm just skeptical at the idea of over targeting missed draws in Vs range and counting on a passive player to turn his hand into a bluff OTR. I'd rather target the middling hands and try to give them a good price to Hero call but maybe the turn sizing folds out more of that range than the drawing hands. Let me know if you come up with anything definitive, I'm always open for new ideas as well.
This is the crux and if we were deeper then I think V might call a river bet even wider (maybe even T5os). Stacks were just kind of awkward here and I wasn't sure if V would bet Tx or even Qx here if I checked. But I decided that since $110 OTR was only half pot, I shouldn't leave any behind and that is why I shoved. I hadn't seen him bluff shove any rivers yet either so that played a role.
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Old 08-20-2018, 04:06 PM   #11
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Re: River Play

If the table is full of OMCs and loose passives why are we betting $15 hoping to get raised? Your reads suggest that just won't happen. Against the main V if he chases down like a madman we should be betting very large to win more money off him.

If someone has Qx they'll probably call any sized flop bet. Tx might fold but there's enough that will call and 7 players saw the flop, I don't worry so much about Tx. Tx just isn't going to put much money into the pot 7 ways.
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Old 08-20-2018, 04:29 PM   #12
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Re: River Play

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Originally Posted by mdelore View Post
If the table is full of OMCs and loose passives why are we betting $15 hoping to get raised? Your reads suggest that just won't happen. Against the main V if he chases down like a madman we should be betting very large to win more money off him.

If someone has Qx they'll probably call any sized flop bet. Tx might fold but there's enough that will call and 7 players saw the flop, I don't worry so much about Tx. Tx just isn't going to put much money into the pot 7 ways.
+1
plus you stated V will chase to river so charge him to do so
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:16 AM   #13
Garick
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Re: River Play

Sorry, I phrased that poorly. I meant "do you think he would have bet second pair weak kicker if it hadn't backed in to a flush?" Because cheese like that makes up a huge portion if his range here.

Also, few non-maniac LLSNL Vs bluff on missed draws, especially when they only have half a PSB left.

I think we get value from a shove way more often than we induce a bluff/weak hand to V-bet.
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Old 08-21-2018, 10:04 AM   #14
shorn7
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Re: River Play

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
Sorry, I phrased that poorly. I meant "do you think he would have bet second pair weak kicker if it hadn't backed in to a flush?" Because cheese like that makes up a huge portion if his range here.

Also, few non-maniac LLSNL Vs bluff on missed draws, especially when they only have half a PSB left.

I think we get value from a shove way more often than we induce a bluff/weak hand to V-bet.
Ok, sorry I misunderstood. Yes I agree that Tx and Qx are still a big part of his range and would most likely check behind (although there is some frequency, not sure what %, where he may choose to turn those hands into a bluff). So I think we agree and I am overall happy with my choice to shove.
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Old 08-21-2018, 12:57 PM   #15
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Re: River Play

I donít like the small flop bet, any 2 broadway cards are incentivized to call here so I like larger, I might even pot the flop. Itís nice that we donít block any of the strong top pairs or OESD. On the turn I like the large sizing. On the riv we should shove. It doesnít matter if v has a ton of missed straight draws if heís not going to bluff with them (and wonít because heís passive). So I like to shove the riv for 1/2 pot get value from QX or funky 2 pair


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