$2/$5 live....4 limpers and I limp OTB with 9h8d

Pot $25...Flop 5s7h4c

Checked to me and I bet $20. EP and MP call.

Pot $85. Turn Th. Now EP comes alive and bets $55. MP calls and I call.

Pot $250. River Jh. Now they both check to me.

Value betting the river is honestly my biggest leak. Sometimes I check behind when I shouldnt. Obviously Im not checking here but how much would you bet? Ive played with EP alot. Hes about 75 and theres no doubt in my mind he has at least 2 pair but doesnt have a flush. MP is unknown.

Note: Can't really give you an answer without knowing stack sizes.

PF: OK

F (31): How is the pot $25 if there are 4 limps, you, and the blind money? Meh...I don't really like the bet. Not sure what it accomplishes. I'd check.

T (91): Can't say if the call is fine; don't know stack sizes.

R (256): So we have the nut straight, but of course a flush is the nuts. EP just bet 65%P on the turn but checked the river. We have to 100% value bet this, but not sure how much becasue I don't know stack sizes.

No stack sizes. --->Delete thread. --->Ban user.

Sorry guys. Everyone started with $400-$500. Maybe there was a blind in there. I dont remember. The pot was $20 or $25 on the flop. I doubt that makes a huge difference in the hand.

On the river we all have $325-$400 or so and the pot is $250ish

fold pre, check flop
bet like half pot

Bet half pot. It's a good size to target calls from two pair hands here and if you get raised, you can re evaluate based on live reads and fold or call the raise. Most players are checking here planning to call with a hand like two pair (scared to bet but never folding), so you could up size it a little bit, like $150, but get too greedy and bet too big and then only hands that beat you can call.

I'm concerned unknown MP could be a super passive fish and could have a flush despite checking river after EP checks. I see a lot of these fishy types check rivers when they make their flush always expecting someone to put in a bet even if it seems unlikely.

If EP can think this too then he is going to find it very hard to call any bet on river even with 2-pair. Therefore I would bet/fold around 1/3 pot to 1/2 pot to make it as easy as possible for EP to call and for MP to overcall with all the junk he hasn't made a flush with.

I'm expecting a river bluff raise from passive MP basically never. Also think old man EP never turns two-pair into a x/r bluff. Therefore happy that betting small won't induce bluffs.

I basically agree with all of this, although I dont think betting small on the river ever induces a check raise bluff in my games. I cant remember the last time I saw a river check raise that got called and was a bluff. Its so rare where I play that Ive thought about doing it myself as a bluff but always chicken out.

The other thing is that in these live games where the pot amount isnt easily knowable without doing some math in your head, it feels to me like the older day time regulars dont make calls based on pot odds. It seems to me like they do it on absolute bet size. The turn bet was $55 so a $200 river bet would seem massive even though the pot is $250.

Anyway, I bet $100 and EP just about insta-called. MP thought a long time and made a disgusted face and folded. EP said he had a smaller straight but didnt show. Im guessing $100-$125 was about right.

My main point was to find out if other people feel like absolute bet size on the river (and not in relation to the pot) is as important as I do or if its in my head. Im not talking about a younger villain who has played on the internet and is calculating hand ranges and pot odds here.

The fishier recreational players, young or old, seem to have no idea about pot odds , cant keep track of pot size or opponent stack sizes and tend to be absolute $$$ sensitive.

I think any experienced player will have some grasp of pot size and pot odds and be less $$$ sensitive. They don't have to be doing pot odds calculations or ranging you competently or estimating their equity vs your range or relating equity to pot odds to make their calling decisions.

All they have to do is be aware of pot size and what players generally bet with different strength hands. Thus they will have a feel that around half pot is frequently a mid strength hand making a blocking bet OOP or a thin value bet IP, or at low stakes; a crap bluff. Their experience tells them 1/2 pot bets are safe to call while pot bets are more frequently very strong hands.