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Old 08-10-2018, 12:08 PM   #1
tmo1120
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To reload or play short stacked?

This is just a general question that I always wonder about.

If your playing a session and you buy in for 100BB and you your stack diminishes to say 60BB or less...

Would you say it is smart to reload so you can have more wiggle room?

Or just work on your short stack game and continue playing the session?

any answers are appreciated

thanks
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:12 PM   #2
Lagavulin16
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

My rule of thumb is that if there is at least one good mark with a big stack, I will make sure I am topped off to maximize any hands I get into with him. When I'm at a table full of people I know for years, I don't bother and play what I have.

If you're not good at short, then don't play short. If you're not good at deep, then don't play deep.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:20 PM   #3
whatnow88
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

I always reload and much faster than most people.

I reload after every hand...
basically have a stack of chips on the rail that I reload with after every hand.

My short stack game is weak because I learned how to play 100 BB game online. Most of my value comes from river bets and getting called light. If we have a 60 BB stack we wont get to the river.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:21 PM   #4
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

Yes imo you should always top off to play fully stacked. I keep green and black chips in my pocket and top off very easily if I lose $25. Playing short limits you to only playing or continuing when you have a good made hand and it will also invite lighter calls when you only have X amount left in your stack, and/or disinvite smaller PP's when you have AA because they don't have odds to setmine.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:32 PM   #5
iraisetoomuch
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

Why do you play with a full stack in the first place? Once you answer that it'll give you more clarity into how often you should top off.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:58 PM   #6
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
Why do you play with a full stack in the first place? Once you answer that it'll give you more clarity into how often you should top off.
+1

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Old 08-10-2018, 02:46 PM   #7
ES2
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

It's up to you. But there is a strong sentiment that you should always top off.

This is mostly just machismo and posturing.

If you are an expert player, well bankrolled with no tilt issues, you should always top off.

Some reasons not to:

tilt control.

Your image might stink.

Sharply reduce variance. Not just because you will lose less money when coolerd or whatever. But because, if you are decent at shortstacking, your edge will be much bigger.

I was a bit tilted last week. Decided to just cool down on my 35 bbs. Loose opener makes it 7x. I shove. He is annoyed and calls with QToff. (He would never have called a 3! If I was deep)

I do top off plenty of times. But I really like these spots where someone else more or less offers to rebuild my stack out of their pocket. Then, if I lose it back, I'm only down the initial buy in rather than 2.

Anyway, in theory your hourly goes down a little but your roi goes up. If you decide that is desirable, go for it.

If you have tilt issues your roi and hourly might both benefit.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:46 PM   #8
tmo1120
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

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Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
Why do you play with a full stack in the first place? Once you answer that it'll give you more clarity into how often you should top off.

I guess my issue is that I understand the benefits of playing deep but at the same time I don't mind playing short stacked because I know how to maneuver my stack and look to pick up uncontested pots. It always feels good making my first bullet last as long as possible . maybe this is flawed logic so I feel like I should make the shift to just reloading and not thinking about the money at all
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:51 PM   #9
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

Start with a short stack, shove a few times to build up a gambooley image, figure out who the fish are, and top off to their level.

Sorry if I'm giving away all the secrets :P
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:01 PM   #10
AKQJ10
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

People on forums like this always oversimplify.

If you're OOP with enough to post the BB, there's no reason to reload until your button. You'd prefer a shorter stack OOP.

If deeper players are to your right and shorter players to your left, tend to buy in deeper, and vice versa. (I don't know why that rarely gets mentioned.)

As others have said, same thing with deep stacked bad players. However, consider whether they're so bad that you want to play that extra money OOP against them. That's very player dependent. Also consider if they're so bad--stacking off with TPNK, say--that other sharps at the table are as likely to get their money as you are.
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:01 PM   #11
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

Generally I want to have the chance to play for as much as I can. So I like to top off.

If, say, I lost a big pot and was down to 20 bb, I'd probably just play that stack for awhile, and top off if I get felted or double.
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:04 PM   #12
whatnow88
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ES2 View Post
It's up to you. But there is a strong sentiment that you should always top off.

This is mostly just machismo and posturing.

If you are an expert player, well bankrolled with no tilt issues, you should always top off.

Some reasons not to:

tilt control.

Your image might stink.

Sharply reduce variance. Not just because you will lose less money when coolerd or whatever. But because, if you are decent at shortstacking, your edge will be much bigger.

I was a bit tilted last week. Decided to just cool down on my 35 bbs. Loose opener makes it 7x. I shove. He is annoyed and calls with QToff. (He would never have called a 3! If I was deep)

I do top off plenty of times. But I really like these spots where someone else more or less offers to rebuild my stack out of their pocket. Then, if I lose it back, I'm only down the initial buy in rather than 2.

Anyway, in theory your hourly goes down a little but your roi goes up. If you decide that is desirable, go for it.

If you have tilt issues your roi and hourly might both benefit.
I don't think short stacking will reduce variance. You will be putting ur stack in with very close percentages. When you are deep you don't get the money in coin flip situations nearly as much if ever. Maybe I have never played against a good shortstacker...

How does short stacking increase edge?
What is edge?

Are you saying short stacking is higher BB per hour in the long run?
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:14 PM   #13
AKQJ10
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

Short stacking absolutely decreases dollar variance--theoretically, it would be impossible for it not to--but increases stack variance, which is also pretty intuitive. In other words, you might blow through twice as many $100 stacks as $300 stacks with similar luck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnow88 View Post
How does short stacking increase edge?
What is edge?

Are you saying short stacking is higher BB per hour in the long run?
If you don't have a full complement of NLHE skills that exceed your opponents, but you are good at playing preflop, it will increase your win (which could mean decreasing your hourly loss, if you're not good at NLHE). You also benefit a little from the elimination effect where the side pot players force each other to abandon equity, although this is a much bigger deal in PLO where everyone frequently has residual equity that's hard to realize.
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:32 PM   #14
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

Your edge is your % advantage.

If you are good at both, you will make more deep because more money is going in. But your edge on that money varies.

I don't know how it works out, but that's a pretty interesting thought. There is a certain level of depth where you might be "coolering" the weaker player much more, for example. There is another level at which the stacks are only relevant in a bbjp scenario. I wonder when your edge is the lowest as the better player, before it starts diminishing? It will vary based on players, but perhaps most often around 50 bbs?

I guess someone could try to make a little chart of the edge at each marginal bb. Though again, it would depend on players.

I agree, good short stack play is rare. There is a lot of nuance to doing really well. Like getting that you have very low RIO.

However, if people call your shoves with hands like qt off and a rag, which they do, you will be getting huge edges without nuances.

I'd say trying to rebuild your stack is just obviously going to be lower variance than buying a new one.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:11 PM   #15
whatnow88
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

Yeah idk what my variance is i just try to maximize my BB per hour at the given stakes.

I would be really upset if I had less than a full stack and got AA. That has to be -ev
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:43 PM   #16
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ES2 View Post
I don't know how it works out, but that's a pretty interesting thought. There is a certain level of depth where you might be "coolering" the weaker player much more, for example. There is another level at which the stacks are only relevant in a bbjp scenario. I wonder when your edge is the lowest as the better player, before it starts diminishing? It will vary based on players, but perhaps most often around 50 bbs?
What do weak players do? Call when they should fold or raise. So perhaps a rule of thumb is that you want enough for three postflop streets of a bet-bet-bet line. If they raise you, you're usually folding. You might want enough for a raise on one street though.

So, at half pot bets, that would mean 3.5x the preflop pot plus a little for preflop if bet-bet-bet; 11.5x for raise-bet-bet. Just a guideline though.

Quote:
However, if people call your shoves with hands like qt off and a rag, which they do, you will be getting huge edges without nuances.
Yep, that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by whatnow88 View Post
I would be really upset if I had less than a full stack and got AA. That has to be -ev
What about if you have less than a full stack and get KK when someone else has AA? They get AA with the same probability as you.

Hands where you play exactly the same as your opponents are not hands where anyone has an edge.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:59 PM   #17
whatnow88
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

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Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
What about if you have less than a full stack and get KK when someone else has AA? They get AA with the same probability as you.

Hands where you play exactly the same as your opponents are not hands where anyone has an edge.
Bad example...whatever we both get stacked
What happens when i go to value bet the river and I have no chips left...the fish would call with his 2 pair but if the hands switch I fold pre soo

Playing a short stack to me is a losing choice. My opponents biggest mistakes are on the river in big pots. They can't fold 2 pair, sets, straights, flushes

If you play short you are all in before the river
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Old 08-11-2018, 07:47 AM   #18
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Exclamation Re: To reload or play short stacked?

This is pretty simple. If you feel you are a favorite in the game, top off when you get below 70 Bigs. DON'T top off every hand...the fish to your left and to your right will certainly notice, and may not give you the action they might have, if you seem a little more like them.
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Old 08-11-2018, 08:07 AM   #19
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

if you want to know the best technique for reloading as well, watch alec torellis coaching videos.
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Old 08-11-2018, 08:31 AM   #20
tmo1120
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katman View Post
This is pretty simple. If you feel you are a favorite in the game, top off when you get below 70 Bigs. DON'T top off every hand...the fish to your left and to your right will certainly notice, and may not give you the action they might have, if you seem a little more like them.
lol fish don't pay attention to stuff like that ... hence why they are called fish
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Old 08-11-2018, 08:55 AM   #21
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

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lol fish don't pay attention to stuff like that ... hence why they are called fish
Is it hubris or laziness that leads people to say stuff like this?
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Old 08-11-2018, 09:31 AM   #22
whatnow88
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katman View Post
This is pretty simple. If you feel you are a favorite in the game, top off when you get below 70 Bigs. DON'T top off every hand...the fish to your left and to your right will certainly notice, and may not give you the action they might have, if you seem a little more like them.
I do it and the fish may notice but it doesn't mean they will fold 2 pair. if anything I just look like I'm stuck because I'm always adding on.
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Old 08-11-2018, 09:44 AM   #23
tmo1120
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

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Originally Posted by DrChesspain View Post
Is it hubris or laziness that leads people to say stuff like this?
That's a cool word . I had to google it lol I'm just making a simple point that if we're going to label players as fish then we should treat them like fish. They really do take the strangest lines sometimes for example like just flatting with AA or KK in position inviting 6 players to the flop. I don't think these people should be given credit for thinking on a high level
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Old 08-11-2018, 11:03 AM   #24
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

But, watching someone reload every hand and feeling like theyre taking the game super serious is not "thinking on a high level", id even argue its not thinking at all.

Ive never seen one person do this on every hand, in years of live play
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Old 08-11-2018, 11:40 AM   #25
whatnow88
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Re: To reload or play short stacked?

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Originally Posted by Alexandar View Post
But, watching someone reload every hand and feeling like theyre taking the game super serious is not "thinking on a high level", id even argue its not thinking at all.

Ive never seen one person do this on every hand, in years of live play
When I learned to play online it was auto top off....so when I play live I auto topoff

If I was able to buyin for more than 100 BB I wouldn't worry about it so much
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