Just sat down to play about 30 mins before this hand. It’s a passive table. Lot of multiway limping to the flop, etc. I’d say people in general a little more cautious / risk averse than normal but that’s blah

OTTH:

This is 1/2. My stack is 230. I’m UTG+2 w/ AhAd

There’s a straddle. UTG+2 calls 5. I raise to 22. Everyone folds. Straddle (UTG) calls, UTG+1 call.

Pot is 60.

Flop: Kc Qc 8h

checks through

Turn: blank. I forget exact card. Low non-club

UTG+1 bets 35
I ponder and call.

River: Kh

He bets 55
Hero ??

If you’d like to hear my thinking, I’m happy to share. I think most people like to share theirs anyway though. Very open to feedback and thinking



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Why would you ever check behind on that flop? The board smacks their range, and there are plenty of draws that can pay you off. There are 21 turn cards that either make a flush or complete a straight draw, meaning almost half the deck is either dangerous for you or represents a scare card for them. Not betting this flop against a passive table is a crime.

On the river... **** man, I don't know. Make a player read. Would he ever bet a queen for value in this spot? Would he ever bet a missed draw? If yes, then call. If no, then fold. If you're not sure, then call because you're getting better than 3-to-1 and have massively underrepped your hand.

I should have given his stack size - sorry. Going to flop he was around 140. Pot is 60. I also see what you’re saying. I have massively underrepped my hand. But is that bad?

If I bet here, I’m getting close to committing myself mathematically. If.. he check raises or calls a juicy bet and then goes to value town. I’d really prefer just a small pot and hope for good runout here since I have position. It could be incorrect, but I think 2 streets of value max here. So much of his range also can really crush mine. I also don’t think this opponent can really bluff me


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As played, call. He probably feels confident betting on the river since you checked flop. Then another K on river makes his Queen look like it would maybe be a value bet. Not a whole lot of info since you basically just sat down. What did you do?

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I actually expect V to have a K here quite often. Getting 3/1 and severely under repping your hand, I'd just shrug and call. I'd never get to the river this way though. Your stack size is a bit awkward, but I'd bet $45-$50 flop and set up a pot-size jam on the turn.

With no history against an unknown, I don't think folding is THE worst thing in the world (by no means am I saying I like it though), but for this relatively small price I'd call and let him show it to me.

Edit: just saw you posted a reply giving V a $140 stack OTF. Easy $45 flop, jam turn line.

Bet flop/shove turn.

I have no idea what you were doing this hand, but never do it again.

Yes it is actually. The goal of poker is to make money, not to make it hard to people to guess what you have. While it's true that there is some value in making it hard to guess what you hold, that doesn't make it the best play.

You have an OVERPAIR. You should want to be committed to the hand.

This is 100% the wrong approach to the game.

I think as played, call. Your main villain has just over 2 SPR on the flop. You need to get that sh*t in.

If you're going to play this passively then just quit poker and pick up a new game.

Not betting the flop here after being the PFR and in position to boot is just awful. Work on your fundamentals: the AG in LAG/TAG is referring to postflop, not pre. Don't be a loose-passive or tight-passive.

You worry about getting check-raised AFTER it happens, not before.

As played you're prolly losing to a K from V.

You have to bet that flop imo, it's a pretty wet board that hits their calling ranges. MAYBE heads up I can see a check, but multiway I feel you have to bet, prolly around 35-45.

His range preflop - ak, kk, qq, kq, kj, kt, qj, 55-TT

on flop, we are either way ahead or way behind. checking behind allows for pot control. and also can disguise hand. it is also not likely that a “free card” is going to help him, hurt hero that badly.

the reason to fold river is because a random 1/2 player is really not likely to take this line with a busted draw or QJ. like very low likelihood.


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I will try to be nicer than some of the posters above, but you really need to bet this flop and be fine with getting mathematically committed at that point. Otherwise you are losing tons of value and not protecting your hand at all (which is vulnerable).

You say this...

But then you conduct a bunch of mental gymnastics to come up with a reason not to bet the flop, despite the fact that every single poster in this thread has said "bet the flop".

You should not be checking for pot control in this spot. You don't need to control the size of the pot when your hand is this strong and you are this shallow.

This could not be more wrong.

This is ridiculous. You are dealt pocket aces, and you don't want to bet them and then you want to fold the river. Is this a serious thread or are you just trolling?

I'm not understanding your thought process...either way ahead or way behind on that flop? you have AA, the overpair, you're not worried about KK or QQ (they flatted pf), so as of now you're worried about KQ and that's basically it, you block AK which you crush right now anyway along with the rest of the range except 88 . Several worse hands could call you, so bet the flop.

There's actually a few turn cards that hurt you so get value while you can.

You don't prioritize pot control on this flop with AA, it's too strong a hand.

not trolling.

I’m not saying my thinking is right. I just don’t think it’s as obviously wrong. what kind of situations do you want to play a smaller pot, then? is that tactic out of favor now? I’m not trying to be abrasive; I made a decision yesterday - be it right or wrong (likely wrong) - but I’ll still defend it. Reasoning is still there. Will flesh out more in a bit


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I would normally exclude those hands too. But players in this poker room are sometimes very passive (heh like me) and hence I think that’s quite possible. I do crush AK but it’s also less likely he has that specific king as I hold 2 aces. KQ / KJ / KT / maybe K9 — I think that’s the main range to consider.

And if he has ladies or kings, I’m smoked. I think betting on the flop is fine and could be optimal, but I think it’s much closer than everyone here says. I have position. If he checks the turn, then I can get 2 streets of value out of a king and possibly queen. If I get check/raised, its a pretty easy fold. Why bloat the pot?

And a final consideration - at least for myself, I’m not playing this game in a vacuum, taking a 6% equity edge and going in 1.5 buy-ins with no nervousness. And I’m sure all of you would like to play me.

Bankroll is a huge aspect and I don’t have a big one solely dedicated to poker right now. Hence, there is an emotional aspect that I acknowledge and I’m sure it affects others as well even if they deny it. Im more interested in my training and career as well as my music. For me, having fun, staying sharp, and picking choice spots where you have a huge edge like 65/35 vs 55/45 is better. Of course you should always do the latter mathematically. But can you afford it? Financially and emotionally.. tiltless poker ain’t easy


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You can play a smaller pot with aces when you're 400bbs deep and you're playing a super tight nit who called your 3b OOP and the flop comes QJx and he has mostly QQ and JJ in his range. You don't want to play a smaller pot when two fish call a single raised pot and could have Q9s here or K7o for all we know when he bets the turn.

You made a point earlier about not being bankrolled for poker. Honestly, if that's the case, and I mean this in a kind, sincere way: stop playing for now. If you're going to play huge hands this passively you aren't going to build up said bankroll, you're just going to keep losing. This passively playstyle postflop doesn't lead to large pots often enough to be profitable unless you're consistently playing in drunken tourist games at the Flamingo in Vegas.

You're giving your opponents wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much credit for their range. There's all kinds of other stuff in there that you're decimating on the flop.

Google "mubsy." Try not to be mubsy.

+1

EZ Game

Also, you can opt to play a smaller pot by checking the turn. You have a massive range advantage on this flop and you want to charge draws (of which there are many). If you bet say 2/3 on the flop and get called in both spots (or raised by someone), well then you can re-evaluate. But to use that logic to not bet the flop puts you in such an awkward position on the turn....you have (1) a very under-repped hand, (2) you have no idea whatsoever what V's bet OTT means because his range is still at its widest, and you can't get any value from your hand now unimproved given V has the betting lead.

I mean I just can't imagine not betting that flop like 100% of the time.

Checking the turn can pot control but that board is way too wet to do it in this case. So many ugly river cards possible (clubs, 9, A, K, etc). OP, stop being mubsy and go after the pot like you want it.

I don’t really get the argument for pot control when you have what is effectively the third nuts after KQ and 88 in a 3 way pot where you are only at effectively 45 Bb’s to start the hand. Also, if you are going for two streets, the two streets you want to go for are flop and turn, maybe flop and river to get called by a queen, but definitely not turn and river since you miss all the value from hands like AJ, JT, etc. Only reason to check flop is if you are at a table with a crazy agro guy who thinks you cap your range when you check and then he will blast off with air.

You also aren’t way ahead here, even if we take QQ,KK, KQ out of their range you have something like 70% equity on the flop folding out a lot of hands is fine.

If they have QJ on the flop they are going to call and if not they weren’t going to call turn anyway unless they improve to a hand that beats you.

As played I would probably fold river to a cautious risk averse opponent. If he seemed like a thinking player I would probably call since you really shouldn’t ever have Kx or better here.

That range is wildly incomplete. What about aq, aj, a10, j10? There are zero players who call with kj but not aj. (and is he really not 3-betting kk? really?)

More importantly, this isn't a wa/wb flop. If the flop was q72r, then you'd be wa/wb. But this is a flop where your opponent can easily have a lot of equity, so you want to CHARGE that equity. With this board texture, it is extremely likely that a free card can help him and hurt you badly. (any club, ace, jack, 10, or 9 can smash you.)

And that also means your opponents can easily have one-pair hands that would call a flop c-bet, but will fold on the turn because one of those scare cards came out.

This flop texture, with this hand, against these opponents, and with these stack sizes is a complete auto-bet.

I appreciate everyone’s helpful feedback here. Apologize for defending and playing devils advocate but that’s also best way to learn.

I agree betting on flop now makes sense. And checking makes little sense (so it’s not close).

If his stack is this short, and there are so many cards that can help him on turn. If one does hit, are we not committed? I think one principle here that is good is to not make decisions on some contingent future hypothetical. Just on what’s going on right now.

But, that street is still definitely going to come. Why not think about it now?

Spoiler:

I fold. I say nice hand after I hear him clank his chips together. I tell him I had aces and he said good fold, how do you check the flop? I said same argument above. He said he had KQ


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Never tell your opponent that you made a big fold, and more importantly never, EVER tell your opponent your thought process.

All good man, just imo it's not really about not bloating the pot, it's getting value for your strong hand. There's little on that flop you're scared of, and there's range that will call. Not wanting to bloat the pot is something to consider when you're deepstacked typically, but that's not the case here.