Surely both kinds of games are fairly common and you have to adjust to each. I've played in games where I minraise the button (and obv get folds), and spots where I 5x or 6x, even 10x open... and I've done both in 5/10 games.

I don't understand the argument. I respect sabr a lot but I have to say that if there's a game where I can 8x or 10x KK and still get lots of action, that's probably one of the softest games ever and I'd be dying to get into it, and nit up get paid. I think having a very strong game in games where standard opens are 3-4x bbs is VERY important to have a sustained performance (not be forced to bumhunt), but I've got to think it's wrong to say you DON'T WANT to be in one of these rarer hugely stationy games.

I definitely agree it takes away a lot of the skill element in the game, it's less fun, and how well you do is far more dependent on showdowns (having hands and not being sucked out on) but on a purely EV standpoint we DO want to be in those games, right?

Obviously using that strategy (nitting up and raising huge) in a lot of games is f cking terrible, and I think it's key to make it clear that dgi probably doesn't mean using this strategy on tables where you'd get exploited if you make huge raises with strong hands, but we in terms of only using it in spots where it's max value (since we'll get action with it ANYWAY), I don't exactly see why sabr's arguing against dgi's point. There's no need to get tense here, because I think both are good players/posters, I'm frankly confused why there's a disagreement at all. The only thing I can think of is that sabr plays at a locale that doesn't have these juicy games we're talking about, and think we're exaggerating when we say, yeah 10x it pre and get max action regardless of how strong you look.

If your 55$ raises are getting called in a 2/5 game by <200$ stacks I really, really, want to move to where those games are.

This is an absolute fantasy to me. I assume it's a gross exaggeration.

If this is actually the case, raise a super wide value range to that size and enjoy your bentley you can buy in a few months. Sick.

My money comes from playing LAG in LLSNL and value betting like a maniac and doubling regs off their weak pairs they l/c pre and call flops with.

Obv this.

It's not. I think part of my success playing live has been identifying/adapting to the wide range of games because it varies so much. Even on the same table, who has folded and who's to act changes both my range and my raise sizing a lot.

Let's assume two huge fish is UTG and UTG+1. If they limp, I will make it pretty huge if I raise. If they fold, I make it 3x (or 2x even OTB at times).

Let's say 2 hands later UTG and UTG+1 are now sb and bb. I'm back to making it 5x pre. npnpnp. What's the chance of them actually noticing. If anything, they will think you're "attacking my blinds more aggressively" and feel even more inclined to defend it. It makes no sense, but that's actually what they would do.

I do think these are extreme cases and most games fall somewhere in between, but I think being comfortable at playing all the games over this spectrum, as well as being able to identify them, is pretty important.

fwiw in my lifetime I've played in 20-25 venues, over 10 of those I've played 50+ hours in, and I've played like both 1/2 and 5/10 (and obv shots higher as well), actually I've played some 1/1 recently "for fun" with some friends too, so if there's one thing I can claim to be expert about is how wide a range of game dynamics/players there can be. Moreover, these dynamics are NOT limited to a certain stake. I've played LOTS of 1/2 games that are tougher than some 5/10 games I played, or situations where the 5/10 game has simultaneously one of the top 5 best/toughest players I've ever played with, and also one of the top 10~ most profitable (depends on how you mean profitable, someone can be a HUGE -bb/100 player at 1/2 but in terms of actual money you can take from him is much less than a slightly worse fish at higher stakes).

The MAJORITY of 2/5 games I've played with I open to 3x though, so in that sense I'm with sabr and find it surprising that you think 5-8xing in 2/5 is your common and most frequent open sizing.

Yes and no. If I may clarify, making an 8bb feel standard for the entire table doesn't eliminate the typical 3bb-4bb raises that many players are hardwired to raise. However, once an 8bb raise feels standard for the entire table, they will now call up to 8bb without thinking about it since that has now become the standard raise. Thus, we can exploit that. Basically, we have widen the calling range of our villains up to that standard amount that I like to achieve.

Yes and no. Yes we have to play a nittier range but that doesn't mean we have to wait for QQ+. All we have to do is play a range that is AHEAD of the preflop raiser.

Yeah, I can agree with that. But again, despite 8bb feeling standard, throughout the game we will still have plenty of opportunity to limp in or call 3bb raises to play our SCs and set mine...

I can buy this.

Fair enough. If conditions in your game are as you say, I can agree with this.

Btw what I said about wide range of game conditions is actually a pretty big deal to me on this forum as I feel like lots of otherwise good players are making fairly sweeping statements about what a villain can or cannot, will or will not do in a certain spot, when it can vary so much, and it's possible (imo) that a lot of, again, otherwise good players) have mainly played in a handful of venues in their grind routine.

This is just speculation and I could be wrong, and I don't want to show off how aggressively I game select (read: bumhunt), but it's worth thinking about it.

This is an important point, but anyone who frequently plays deep games with passive stations will know what I mean when you'll be isolating or raising huge with hands like 98s and JTs FOR VALUE. You WANT to get called because you know you can outplay them so well, not by bluffing merely (though you will sometimes) but by having a hand that make excellent hands to bomb for value, and generally have lots of equity, and when you DO make marginal showdown hands, be super happy about bet/folding. Obv when 80bbs 100bbs you'll have to be more selective about this.

I think we just think we are both right. And perhaps we both are.

I play in CA and Vegas with incredible game selection opportunities. Every day I watch as rec fish and aggro donks make the most ******ed plays known to poker kind. These players change the table dynamics so that even if there are a few competent players the bad players still determine the table dynamics and i've learned how to just adjust and exploit.

However, it seems SABR plays in a poker locale with players that aren't as fishy and aggro and he doesn't have the table selection opportunities that i have.

I will be honest, on rare occasion, I encounter a game like SABR is talking about. But in my areas, that game doesn't last long because all it takes is one or two droolers or aggros to come to the table and boom, back to our regularly scheduled donkfest. Or, if worse comes to worse I just table change.

There are tight-passives (who limp-fold a lot) and loose-passives (who call wide pre and then c/f when they whiff).

Yeah, there are very few players like this in my $2/5 game. Most of them play $1/2 instead. The $1/2 at my casino is way softer than $2/5, but I don't think the higher rake and 2.5x lower stake make it worth playing (for someone good).

Yes. I start with this strategy and I obv can adjust if the table has 6 crazy aggro fish, it's just that this scenario almost never occurs in my game.

Umm yeah I agree 100%.

This exactly. Having a stronger fundamental game means you can adjust more easily to tougher games. Doing it the other way around isn't as easy (starting from playing an exploitable game that is really good against fish and going into a tough game).

A misunderstanding perhaps.

My point was that all else being equal, I'd rather have bad players open to 3-4BB than 8-10BB, because I can call the 3-4BB raise more often with hands that have implied odds. The 8-10BB raise means I can't call, and won't.

Obv if a game is so soft that a 10BB open frequently gets called by weak hands, then I'd love to get into that game and be able to play nitty and print money. I didn't mean that I didn't want to play in an overall environment like that.
Yes.

Well I agree with you on most things, but see here's an interesting thought: would what you said still be true if you are 200.. 300... 500bbs deep?

I recall you saying that the games you played with have 100bb cap, but in a few places there are no caps. The 2/5 at the vic for instance has 2.5k cap, and 5/10+ is uncapped.

Also re dgiharris's games being filled with droolers.

MUST BE NICE.

I just posted the other day about how the Omaha game I have to play in while in HK is filled with nitfishes, hollyyy ****. Do you know what I had to do to win money? I have to bet bet raise (vs a donk) with flopped nut straight when the river flush came and he led half pot on river (put him on weak flush/combo redraw) and he snap folded his straight (would've chopped; he was block betting lol). This must be one of those examples because I bet 3 years ago when you played omaha you could literally nut peddle, like they do, and rake in the money, but nowadays people know not to get lots of money in without the nuts. It'd be actually fun to play if not of the fact that they limp so much all the time and I never get to play 3bet pots.

Well you can ignore specific numbers like 4 or 10 BB but the concept doesn't change. I made up those numbers because I play in 100 BB games, but in any game there's always a point where you can't profitably call. And of course you want to get into more pots vs bad players, so if they raise so much that you can't call, then they can't be outplayed post-flop which is worse for you.

100 bb effective:

Villain raises to 4bb with AA = good.

Villain raises to 8bb with AA = bad.

200 bb effective:

Villain raises to 8bb with AA = good.

Villain raises to 4bb with AA = great!

Note: good and bad in the sense that we are going to play our hand.

You're right of course, and that's my point, there are lots of games where 8bbs or 10bb raises are callable with speculative hands, so it's all relative/all depends. That's all I mean to say.

Actually I think in super deep games, making it REALLY big OOP is a mistake with most of one's range is asking to be exploited because there's no range configuration I can think of that doesn't let you get exploited; you either make it so big with strong hands that you only get action from better hands, or you play too weak and get 2x or 2.5x 3bet tonnes by people IP who're willing to go batsh*t with you. When you're REALLY deep you can't even stack off KK comfortably preflop, so you're really tied when EP. I'd rather raise smaller EP but have a wider range that's tougher to play against. Having a range of only AK QQ+ actually makes you SUPER easy to play against when you're deep (how many flops can you stack off QQ KK AA and AK on when 200bbs deep, I mean?), but doing 8x with your entire loosish range is just burning money, too.

But back to the issue in question; if villain makes it 8x with entire range deep, that's even better for us, imo, as we can go street with him and make it 18bbs. If he plays so tightly that we can't bluff him much, then we can call and make life hell for him postflop and put him on a very narrow range of hands.

Today 3/5 $300 cap (lol LA)

Villian runs his second BI down to 20bb. Limp calling/fit or fold. Limps from MP, calls a 5x raise from SB. Two players see the flop. Flop AcJd8h. Villian checks, SB bets $75 which covers V. Villian actually stands up, starts moving a little away from the table and says "I know you have a better kicker but it's time for me to go anyway." Shoves in his stack and flips over A5o. Board runs out 3x6x, SB flips over AJ for top two, and collects a nice little pot from a guy who had been folding to large bets for the last two hours, waiting for a big hand.

Heres a donkaliscous hand in a relativily deep game. This particular player was actually usually one of the more decent players but this hand is attrocious.


Limped around, villain1 in the bb, villain 1 makes it 5 dollars, whole table calls 5 including me in the small blind.

k4x is flop around 50 is pot

flop, I check villain bets somewhere in the rhealm of 10-15, 15 I think everyone folds, stationy player(villain 2) in late position calls, I call.

I check, villain 1 goes to select check, then he decides to bet 5$ at this point there a possible flush draw on board, villain 2 raises to 30, I fold, villain 1 calls 30.

River is offsuit Jack, Villain 1 shoves for 140, villain 2 calls.

villain 1 has AA
Villain 2 has k4

Typical hand that I see:

Flop comes Q610

Anyone bets 10$ (Pot 12$)
Villain calls, 10$

Turn (30$): 8
Same bettor bet out 25$
Villain calls

River (80$): K
Bets out 30$
Villain calls

Bettor shows AQ complains asking if V hit his second pair with KQ
Villain shows K8o...
wtf?

As soon as I get back to work I am going to merge the raise size talk into the raise size thread. Discussion can carry on in there if needed.

This is typical of the rec fish that are playing strictly for fun. They don't care about odds, correct play, etc. They play because its fun and that they can "always" get lucky and win. I mean, after all, there are two cards coming right? If an 8 hits then I have a pair of eights, yay . If a king comes then I have a pair of kings, yay

Imo (and in my neck of the woods), these players comprise roughly 15% of 1/2nl players and 5% of 2/5nl players. The significant and important fact is to UNDERSTAND THEIR IMPACT ON THE TABLE DYNAMICS.

Its key that you identify the thinking players at the table because the thinking players at the table are always going to try to isolate the drooler so they can play heads up.

This creates an interesting dynamic because we can widen the range of the thinking player who is trying to isolate and if we have the right image we can chase him out of the hand post flop especially if we have position. However, we have to realize we have ZERO fold equity vs the drooler so we have to have a hand that has value. TPWK or better is virtually the nuts against these type of players.

But, we can't be blinded by the drooler. The entire table is going to be licking their chops waiting to get it in vs the drooler so you have to beware ABC players. When they go to isolate the drooler, they are still only doing it with a top 4% range QQ+, AQ+ and most ABC players aren't going to be able to fold their value hands post flop.

Another important impact of the drooler on table dynamics is that he will increase the number of players that flat whenever he flats. Again, everyone is trying to get a piece of him so they want to play more pots with him. So, this makes a situation ripe for squeezing and isolating. We should be willing to increase our raising range and take advantage of situations in which we can isolate. Its profitable to iso against the drooler with a wide range, T9+, 77+.

I like the derailment. Can you just clone it and keep it in both threads???

I think it adds to this thread because the argument/derailment does a good job of representing the dichotomy of "typical" LLSNL play; the tighter/passive side vs the aggro/rec fish side. And more than anything, I want this thread to be representative of typical LLSNL play.

Overall, I think it helps the thread.

Usually derailments are a waste of time but I'm pretty happy with this one. I tend to identify with dgi on this one. The room I play in is ridiculous and 10bb raises are commonly called with things like q90 and t6s. Raisin smaller in order to maneuver post flop is beyond stupid in these games as you're looking to get as much in against t6s as possible pre. That said, I have no doubt that none of the contributing posters would have any trouble adjusting to this circa 2004 style game. They do still exist if you're willing to dodge bullets in the Parkin lot pre/post session.

I was going to move it because of your first comment. I think I can in fact copy it though. Let me see what I can do.

Moderator tricks FTW... copied to the other thread and left in here.

I'll now do some general clean up and delete trolling in here...

Yeah, initially I hated the discussion because I couldn't help but think that all LLSNL games are like the ones I play -- Vegas and CA are overflowing with aggro players and rec fish. But it makes sense that that there are some pockets throughout the country that may not have the same dynamics. For instance, if you have a relatively small poker population, I could see the game in that area stagnating a bit.

So, I was wrong and now think the discussion adds to this thread.

thanks for figuring out a way to keep it in.

The Overshove

These guys are great to play against when they give you correct odds to call pre.

5/5 1k max

V1 limps EP

V2 raises to 50 MP

All but V1 fold.

Flop (105) 234r

V1 ch, V2 shoves all in for ~1300. Tables QQ after V1 folds, says he was fine with taking the hand down there.

Shoold read thread before posting. Already covered.

Fair enough, musta missed it. Carry on then.

Hate to beat the dead horse. But there are specific games where I find myself taking something of the modified dgiHarris approach to preflop; humorously, this gives me a preflop that sometimes looks almost exactly the same as the fish, except for my raise size.

Basically, in a passivish-preflop game, I will limp ALOT while raising AQs+,TT+ about 8x+when IP. It results in maximizing cheap flops vs the bad villain leaks, while extracting the value when we have a range that is CRUSHING our villains.

This works best when we have a passive preflop table.

Different table dynamics call for very different preflop actions. And I generally disagree, dgi, that the biggest villain leaks are pre; i find the biggest leaks are postflop, and I really hate to miss out on them.

To exemplify dgiharris' point, last night I raised my button to 10bb over 3 limpers and was called oop by 84o. Never mind that it flopped trips (grr story of my last two weeks). Many villains are literally limp/ calling Atc preflop with no regard to position or opponent. I don't know how this guy expects to profit with this play other than the fact that this behavior is occasionally reinforced when the flop comes j44 and he gets two solid streets off me. If you're in these games a bump to 12-15bb is probably not out of line.