Floating means calling a street with the intent to bluff a later street.

So, in this hand, hero called a 5x preflop raise with 3-3. Where would you draw the line then? @TT+ or so, but then you are raising? So, is call ever a good idea here really?

Players who are aggressive enough to bluff the river with a busted draw are usually aggressive enough to have check-raised the flop or turn at least some of the time.

Sometimes the mindset is "If I bet to get it all in on the flop or turn, I am usually behind if it turns into a big pot, but if it takes three streets of betting to get it in, then I win often enough to not hate myself", except more of a gut feeling based on experience rather something so sophisticated and put into so many words.

These analysis seems scattered to me.

The mindset depends on the skill level of the player.

Now, if we are talking about the typical recreational player that doesn't think beyond level 1, then absolutely they will c/r somewhere on flop or turn or even river with absolutely no thought as to the board texture or villain's range.

however, if we are talking about a thinking player, that player will recognize that heads up, he smashes the hand and that his villain likely missed but since his villain has position and was the preflop rasier is going to cbet majority of the time. Also, given that the board is wet, villain may put us on a flush draw and likewise double barrel turn. And then when the K hits on river we shove because that likely hit our villain's range or we make our hand look like a bluff and our villain calls us down with any made hand or possibly even a bluff catcher like AQ...

So what i'm saying is that analysis of this situation depends on player profiles and reads.

If i'm OOP against a very aggro villain then I can comfortably c/c knowing he will bet. But if my villain is passive then I can't depend on c/c to inflate the pot. If my villain is level 1 then what I do doesn't matter because villain isn't calling unless he hits something. If my villain is a thinking player I can manipulate him into thinking that i'm bluffing...

Again, it depends.

Villain is a straight forward player, he knows I am no where near that

1st hand of the night, 1/3NL home game

Hero(300$) CO with KQ raises to 12$
Villain(300$) SB reraises to 32$
Hero calls IP like a boss, planning to outplay the **** outta him

Flop(64$) T85
Villain bets 50$
Hero snap calls showing no hesitation, was planning on floating any low flop and c/r the turn...thinking he could fold alot there
Turn(164$) 2
Villain bets 150$, Hero folds

Lesson learnt:
- Don't float in 3b pots, typical villains usually check behind when they whiff imo
- Folding pre is Ok, but I know my villain too well to actually show profit in this spot imo, could be wrong though

Villain shows AA and hero thinks that villain played turn bad, he prevented me from making some expensive mistakes, i think they do that to eliminate any thinking they might have to make

I occasionally fall into this trap. I know I'm better than they are so I assume thy
Means I can take a pot off them at any time. Even bad players have cards sometimes.

Villain was putting you on JJ-KK and hoping you couldn't fold, I think he played it ok.

Floating 33 is borderline bad only because you have a Backdoor draw so you're not naked out there. I would have checked turn just to make sure he didn't have a hand or spades.

The hand is played bad because of logic, but you played the hand how I would have played it. I'm calling flop for Backdoor hearts since villains hand strength is obvious.

Agreed, Villain was a bit too over eager on turn making a bet a lessor hand couldn't call.

I think OP's range is AJs+, KQ, JJ/QQ. KK 4bets so we can take that out of our perceived range.

Reason why V's bet isn't optimal is because it folds out AJs+, KQ and it even folds out the occassional JJ.

V should bet 1/2 pot on turn because if we have JJ/QQ we are raising turn and if we have AJ+, KQ we can continue floating or even spazz out and make a move.

Lastly, I wouldn't say that villain's turn bet is bad, I just think it isn't optimal and loses value because it pushes out all the hands he's crushing and/or denies us a chance to make a move.

I really believe they just wanna play the hand the easiest way possible...if he bets 75$ and I shove he will have a decision to make...although he will be good here almost all the time...I mean what am I shoving with?

Well the problem with casual players is that they have the wrong mentality.

They focus on winning pots, not making +EV decisions.

Bombing turn usually takes down the pot, which they are happy with.

I think it is reasonable for villain to not care if hero has AJ+, KQ on the turn, on account of believing that hero is not a complete idiot. If V wants hero to go nuts with those hands, he should consider checking. A lot of LLSNL players do take the line with AA/KK of betting a low flop, then checking if the turn is a blank to represent AK with hopes for a c/r.

I think c/c turn, c/shove river is optimum there...since he should know I could get floaty there...and really what am I repping if I bet the turn after he checks...but I planned on doing this because he will give up with anything that whiffed

I have one other hand vs same villain, where he made the exact same mistake...he just doesn't allow me me make expensive moves...
We were both >150bb eff
Folds to hero in the CO with 86
I make it 15$
Villain calls in the SB
Flop(30$) QQJ
Villan checks, I check knowing he will bet all his range ott to "take it down", the super system style
Turn(30$) 4
Villain bets 20$, I make it 70$, he hollywood calls...
I range him to any spade draw, KT, and T9 with some nutty hands (Q8s+)
River(170$) 2
He open ships for 3x the pot...I tank fold
He proudly shows QJo

he's targeting the "cooler" part of your range only.

Why did you tank fold lol

lol I was pissed

typical hand
1/2 stack about $250
Hero raises KK to $12 utg, 6 people call

Flop is Q 6 3 (pot $84)
check, Hero bets $60, everyone folds.

3 very typical hands I played last night in an loltastic 2 hour +327 $2/3 session:

straddle, call, call, call, I raise AA to $36, sb calls half his stack (lol), tilted fish ($300) calls, rest fold.

Flop ($123) KcJc7d Checks to me, I bet $100, they fold. (Tilted fish was calling any piece)

--------

utg limps, fish raises $11, drunk woman calls $11, I raise KKto $40 in sb, fish calls, woman calls

Flop ($125) Qc3c2x I bet $90, they fold.

--------

5 limps to me + dead posted blinds in lp, I raise AK to $35, tilted impatient guy who was talking on the phone about getting in a bar fight shoves for $127. Folds to me I snap call and turn my hand up. Board runs out Q5349 and my hand is good. He claims Ace-10.

check out the disparity between the above hand and the below hand in terms of preflop action

I beat this drum all the time on 2+2, when we are MONSTER we can raise a RIDICULOUS amount preflop because LLSNL fish will call because they are clueless about SPR. Also, they did not drive 45 minutes to the casino to fold their favorite hands preflop. 2+2ers lose sooooo much value sticking to a rigid and inflexible philosophy concerning preflop raising.

LLSNL players think absolutely nothing about calling off 1/5th, 1/4th, 1/3rd and even in some cases 1/2 of their stack preflop with their favorite J9s, 87s, Axs, Kxs, etc type hands or incorrectly setmine with pp because they don't know you need a minimum of 10:1 to profitably set mine and in fact that the community has shifted to 15:1 for profitable set mining...

I say this all the time, every table will have a "threshold" for preflop raises. If you are raising and getting 3+ callers then you simply aren't raising enough. Keep increasing your raise amount until you get 1-2 callers. Then you know you've hit the magic raise amount. Quite often, you can raise $18 - $26 in 1/2nl and $20 - $35 in 2/3nl and $30 - $55 in 2/5nl but this is just a generic range. There are some tables where there is almost no limit to what you can raise. When the alcohol is flowing and the tilt is contagious, you can sometimes catch villains when they are willing to call 15bb - 20bb preflop even when they only have 50bb...

I was surprised by getting 2 calls for each of the above hands. I was the only player at the table making "big" preflop raises which weren't even that big. Immediately after the KK hand I thought to myself "****, if they are calling $40, I should have made it $55". Both times I ended up with 2 callers so I think I hit the sweet spot. A bit more might have resulted in folds, and a bit less obviously too many calls. I think 1-2 calls = correct preflop sizing.

The $2/3 game I play almost nobody raises more than $15 preflop with any hand including AA, which makes it soooo easy to beat.

How a typical donk plays AA in this game:

5 limps to him in bb with AA. He raises to $13, eveyone calls. Flop 973 and he stacks off vs 97o

^^^ ya, they think street by street, and don't fold PF (seeing flops is fun),
so bet as much as they will call, and get them committed, so when they flop a pair, or a piece, they have to stack off, because they prolly put you on AK anyways.
they arent thinking 'If i call this and flop a pair, then i wont be able to fold, and i'll prolly be getting it in bad, so maybe im better off folding now'

I play w/ people who will call either $20 or $100, it doesnt matter, with Q2s w/ $300 behind without blinking cuz its sooted.
you have to know who is who.
if they are playing optimally, find another game, imo.

if you open your mind to how bad they really are, i know its hard to fathom, and start betting bigger amounts, you will make more $, <profit>

My $2/5 game is full of bad nits who limp and then fold for $20.

I have to play like 25/18 small-ball LAG to grind out a profit.

I'd like this thread to represent "typical" hands and games.

I've never played in a 2/5nl game that players were fearful or not calling $20 preflop raises. A $20 preflop raise in 2/5nl is regarded as a minor raise that rec fish will call with a 40% range and not even blink.

Your game sounds like it's not indicative of a normal 2/5nl game.