Sounds like this guy should have bet it but mostly I would check top set unless your cbet % is super high. Snap calling with a set when a flush comes in is always funny. Where I play if a flush comes in and someone changes from calling to raising, they have a flush like 95% of the time.

Sure, but this guy had a hyper-aggro-obnoxious-want-to-bully-the-table image. What do you think his first check of the night after cbetting 100% of the time he PFRed meant?

Standard plays by non-standard players are non-standard.

Been thinking about some hilariously bad acting I’ve seen recently at $1/$2:

Hand 1:

Limped pot that I wasn’t involved in. Can’t recall the board, but that’s not the point of these stories.

Anyway, V1 starts betting on the flop, V2 calls. Everyone else folds.

V1 bets the turn, V2 groans and says “Just nickel and diming me eh? Alright, I call.” And throws in a few chips with dejection.

V1 bets the river. V2 groans loudly again, “thinks” for maybe 30 seconds, and in the most defeated voice you can imagine says “Alright, I’m all in” and sloooooooowly pushes in his chips.

V1 calls with 2 pair. V2 flips over a straight.

I can hardly believe the horrendous acting players at these stakes try – in almost all cases it’s the “strong means weak and weak means strong” act, but it’s performed so badly that Sheldon Cooper would see through it. Whether the act actually worked or if V1 just played his 2-pair and didn't care what V2 did, I don't know, but the situation was pretty obvious to me watching. I love it when people try this act on me, such as in:

Hand 2:

Villain is an unskilled loose aggressive player. He was the PFR and had cbet on a flop of A 8 7. I call in position with 9 T.

Turn was another A. Villain instantly takes a whole stack of red chips and slams them down loudly on the table, then sits back with crossed arms and stares at me menacingly.

I pause for a few seconds, then raise with my OESD. Villain looks like he wants to punch me in the face, and folds.

And hand 3:

Unskilled LAG (V1) raises in EP, I 3-bet with AJs to isolate, but I get cold called by a relatively unknown loose passive player (V2) to my immediate left. V1 also calls.

Flop comes K Q x rainbow, nothing of my suit. V1 checks. I’m confident a cbet on this flop is +EV with 2 broadways that hit my range. V1’s range is huge here, and I’ve often seen him lead into the aggressor when he hits, so I’m not concerned about him. As long as V2 didn’t hit, I would like take this pot right here. And if called I still have 4 outs to the nut straight.

Before I act though, V2 checks out of turn behind me, then immediately turns to me and says “sorry.” My BS detector shoots up. His apology was so fluid after his check that it felt planned all along. If it were a genuine mistake, he probably wouldn’t have realized his mistake and apologized until it was pointed out to him.

And on top of that, as I continue counting out my chips for that cbet, he leans so far in that he’s almost touching my shoulder, staring at how many chips I’m counting out.

I put on the show for a few seconds, then check instead. I knew something very fishy was going on.

Turn brings a BDFD possibility, V1 leads out, I fold, V2 calls.

River completes the BD flush, V1 bets again, V2 goes all-in and gets snap called. V2 turns over pocket kings and almost celebrates before realizing V1 has a flush. Without a word, V2 gets up from the table and leaves. Pot was almost $700.

I just sat there laughing to myself, happy as hell that this angleshooter got his ass handed to him so spectacularly, but also his idiotically weak act saved me from making the $60 cbet that I would’ve made if he hadn’t tried anything!

Hand 3: I am really not enamored with your desire to c bet on a KQx board there into two people in a 3 bet pot. That flop is murdering V2's range

Damn... Is my attempt to make fun of donks actually showing me as the donk?

Yeah cbetting air 3way on KQx when you got your PF 3bet cold called on your left is a recipe for disaster

I'm not sure about the tell in Hand 2, with the guy menacingly staring you down. I've encountered this kind of aggressive behavior maybe a dozen times and in every case I can remember it was a nutted hand, usually the nuts at the time the staring started.

Usually bluffers don't want to do anything too unusual so they don't arouse suspicion, and the menacing stare is often interpreted as goading someone into a call. On the other hand people with nut hands usually act casual and relaxed so they don't scare you away. People may "act" differently depending how you look and how they look. A big muscular guy might, with weak hands, stare menacingly at someone he perceives as weak like a scrawny guy with glasses in order to intimidate into folding. I don't think this would work much unless the guy is REALLY intimidating and the target is REALLY timid though. Usually there's so much testosterone in this kind of situation the death stare is more likely to be interpreted as "Oh you think I don't have the balls to call? Well up yours, I call!" hence why you see it more with nutted hands.

I don't fully understand this one though and personally never try to intimidate people either with bluffs or value hands.

Hands 1 and 3 are pretty funny.

I think most people don't go out of their way to "act" at this level but you can often prod them into acting by asking questions, and if/how they respond can tell you a lot. Here's a hand I had somewhat recently:

2/5 game: I open 66 in the LJ to $20 and get 2 calls, BTN and BB. I'm 1k effective with main villain, the BB.

Flop ($60) K63

It's checked to me and I bet $40, BB calls.

Turn ($140) K639

BB checks. I bet $90 and he calls.

River ($320) K6394

BB bets $250. I immediately ask him "Your hearts got there huh?" and first he shrugs, then a couple seconds later says "Maybe they did and maybe they didn't. Gotta call to find out."

I almost LOL at how hard he's trying to convey that maybe he's bluffing when I think he's actually bluffing close to 0%. Also I didn't ask if he made a flush, I asked if his hearts got there and he said "Maybe they did and maybe they didn't" which seems like a slip of the tongue. I fold pretty quickly and he shows me A2

1/2 game: UTG and MP limp, I 15 OTB with AJ and both limpers call. I'm 300 effective with UTG, it's hard to tell how much MP has left due to mix of chip denominations and uneven stacks and he's on other side of table, but looks like 50 to 100

Flop ($45) JT8

X to me, I bet $20 planning on folding to a raise from UTG and calling a raise from MP. UTG folds. MP shoves. I ask the dealer for a count and MP says "It's not that much...like 5 more." I say "Five??" he says "Yeah I think" then he pushes it all forward and dealer counts it and says "It's 75". I tell MP his count was off a bit and snap fold at that point. MP shows Q9 for the nuts.

Any time I hear the "oh it's not much more" alarm bells go off in my head. I've never heard that from a player who had worse than 2p, usually set+. If I hear more than once about how little it is or how many chips I have it's just transparent begging for a call. Only exception I've seen to this is very clueless or drunk players who aren't keeping track of their stack size and just have no idea how much they have, but it's pretty easy to tell the difference.

Another ridiculous one. "Let's gamble!" or any variant thereof after somebody 4-bets or 5-bets pre-flop. This is always AA from a deep stack, from a SS it might be QQ or KK but it's always insanely strong. Again, one exception, maniacs who say "let's gamble" and similar things a lot and make 4-bets and 5-bets a lot, but they're pretty rare.

In fact getting villains to talk in low stakes games is crazy valuable because they'll often turn their hand face-up with their response. The problem for me is most people don't respond so it's not as useful as it could be. If I just ask "Did you hit your flush?" or similar they typically make no response.

If I guess their exact hand I might get a response but that's not always easy to do. One Indian guy raised me OTR after I bet/bet/bet with a set. Like 400BB pot. Only one unlikely straight got there. I thought about it a bit and said "You have 9 7 of spades right?" (flopped gutshot + BDFD / turned FD / rivered straight). I didn't think this guy would call me OTF with a bare gutshot so that was the only value hand that made any sense. He says in a thick accent "Sorry? Ninety-seven??" acting very confused. I'd never heard him speak before so I assumed the accent was real. I ask him twice more but he keeps acting confused and I think he thinks I'm asking about the bet amount on a previous street. I think for another minute and call because there's literally one hand combo that makes sense and beats mine. After I call he flips 97 and suddenly says in clear English "You had it right". I felt pretty stupid afterward for falling for his routine, but it was actually pretty clever compared to most of what you see.

Any tips getting people to talk during a hand?

You're right, it's definitely not a consistent tell; but we were actually in precisely the scenario you just described, and I lol'ed at your example. This guy was giant and bulky and was running over the table, and I'm 140 lbs. In that moment I felt quite confident that his act of intimidation was a weak means strong bet.

This isn't a ****ing strat thread peeple

A lot of assumptions went into calling a PSB ott with a low fdraw. IMO it's -ev if you're wrong about any of them.

Friday night witnessed a very donkalicious play.

European fellow to my left limps UTG, 70+ OMC limps behind him, folds to SB and BB who call. Flop 852dd checks to OMC who overbets pot 20 into 15 or so, folds to UTG who makes it 55, OMC wastes little time and puts his 200 stack in. UTG starts saying stuff like “come on man” and “I’ve got two pair here, seriously?” even though he’s holding his cards up enough I can see he has AA being on his direct right.

Eventually he calls, board runs out and OMC shows the obvious set and scoops.

This is not as donkalicious as some hands in this thread but is more in the spirit of the OP

1/2NL

V1 (BB - $160) Pretty LAGgy player. Buying in for $100 and not afraid to GII pre with hands like KJo/AQo etc. Not super relevant here.

V2 (UTG - $800ish) Older guy but not OMC. Fish on a heater, flopping 2 pair+ with crap and getting paid. He's getting looser and gamblier as he builds up his stack. I've caught him playing preflop without looking a couple times.

Hero (BTN - $600) I've been running good and catching hands, but only showing down premiums. Won an average sized pot earlier when I flopped KK and got shoved on by a short stack on a K high flop, and turned a K to make quads for the high hand bonus (not relevant, just bragging)

V2 limps UTG, another player limps, and I raise to $13 OTB with 88. V1 min 3-bets to $25, V2 flats, limper folds, and I flat.

Flop ($75) K83r. V1 leads out $75, leaving himself about $60 behind. I'm pretty sure I'm just going to put him in for the rest of it OTF even though it's so dry he could potentially fold but I don't see him ever having a range here that can't call $60 into over $200.

But then suddenly V2 JAMS for $800. I actually take 10 seconds just to make sure I've got my hand right, that this isn't just always KK, and make the call. V1 has AA. V2 has KQo!?!. The board holds up and I scoop the biggest pot of my life to date.

Key mistakes:

V1 min 3-bets from the BB. Even with his shortish stack I can still call with 100% of my button raising range there, and with position I can make his life suck postflop. Once the flop comes it's stackoff city for him, but the min 3-bet is just plain bad.

V2 first flats in EP with KQo (raise or fold man), then cold calls a 3-bet (albeit a small one). Then he completely loses all awareness of who is in the hand and with what stacks, and makes a bet that is only called when crushed, and learns a very expensive $600 lesson.

One other takeaway from this is BUY IN FULL. Every so often players will just punt 200bb+ to you when you've got the nuts. While shortstacking can be profitable, you are leaving a lot of money on the table, and these pots do move the needle on your winrate quite a lot.

I used to always think this as well (and in fact started off nearly every grunch of mine with "top up"), and at good tables where there are idiots around who could make massive mistakes like this obviously it's a good idea. However, if the tables aren't idiot filled, and we're not extremely comfortable against everyone else deeper stacked, then I'm not convinced the increased difficulty of playing deeper against non-idiots is going to make up for these once-in-a-blue-moon spots. As you say yourself, this is the single biggest pot you've scooped; if we assume an awesome lol hand like this every 2000 hours (or have you played more?), the fact you're sitting $600 deep instead of $200 only made a $400 difference over 2000 hours, for an increase to your winrate of 20 cents.

M tried to convince me of this years ago; I think I've finally come around to the fact he was likely right.

Gbut,still,noharmtoppingupatidiotfilledtablesG

While this pot was my biggest, I probably have someone punt 150bb+ every 50 to 100 hours on average. Its hard to keep track of every big pot I have won, but they happen often enough that I am pretty confident my winrate would take a big hit if I bought shorter.

Sure, I lose more on coolers, but those come out in the wash anyways. Just because deep stacked is harder doesnt make it less profitable. Its harder for the other guys too. Even the "non idiots" are going to make deepstack mistakes for you to profit from. The only way it is worse for your winrate is if your opponenets are better at playing deep than you. Even if they are semi comprtent, as long as they are below us in skill level deep, it will be more profitable.

I also just find deep stacked more fun and interesting. It gives me more options for exploiting my deeper opponents. If they are too call happy I can value bet heavier. If they are scared I can bluff bigger. 3 bet pots have more maneuverability. I just find it a more interesting game in general.

Overall it sounds like you're pretty comfortable / have an advantage over your opponents playing deep, so definitely sounds like the way to go for you.

GcluelessdeepstacknoobG

I don't know how you can sit and watch a deep game at llsnl and not think that topping off is the best option. People are really bad at deep stack, they don't realize they're committing their stack with bets in certain spots where they're only going to get shoved on by a better hand while folding out worse. Particularly with AA/KK, where players announce their hand preflop and can't fold later on.

Recent hand: 1/2 NL with $300 cap buy in

V) UTG, MAWG, overweight, raises frequently with trash hands, bets small with weak hands/bluffs, bets big with the goods, running good ($700)

H) SB, 30 WG, beard, never gets credit for having a real hand despite playing tight af pre($550)

V opens to $7, 4 callers to me, I raise to $45 with 1010, V makes an almost min 4 bet to $85 which announces "I HAVE AA OR KK", folds back to me and I call.

Flop: 10, 9, 9 rainbow

V Bets $200, I call

Turn: J

I just shove, he snap calls & flips up his AA like he has the absolute nuts. Groans and throws up his arms when he sees my hand.

1/3, 550 effective.

Hero in CO, BTN straddle to $6. 5 limpers including V in MP. Hero raises AA to $55. Only V calls.

Flop ($130 or so) AK6r

V checks, H $65, V tank calls

Turn ($260) T, bring backdoor clubs

V checks, H $150, V tanks, jams. Hero snaps, V shows QJo

F this game sometimes

You forgot the next step:

River ($1120) 6, V storms out of room.

Believe me, I wish. We ran it twice, I blanked on both.

I play mostly online right now, so forgive me, but here are two hands that I wanted to share for the lulz. At 100NL.

(100bb effective, no history with Villain) Hero raises to 3 with TsTh in MP1. BB calls.
Flop: Js Tc 8h.
BB c/c Hero's bet of 4.
Turn: 2s
BB c/c Hero's bet of 10.
River: Td
BB c/c Hero's bet of 20.

I win. I click the "Last Hand" button to see what he had. He had 88, for eights full. Soul read, clearly.

(Not a participant in the hand, just a witness, players are 70bb effective)
Player1 in UTG minraises to 2. Player2 in UTG+1 reraises to 4. All fold to Player1 who calls.
Flop: 9c6d2h.
Check check.
Turn: 4h
Player1 bets 3. Player2 calls.
River: 2d
Player1 bets 3 again. Player2 calls.

Player2 wins the pot with AA.

Is the first one weird because he never raised I guess? I see this kind of thing a lot in live poker. It's especially fun when I take the checks as weakness and try to barrel the guy off of the second nuts. Lost most of my stack recently triple barrel bluffing this guy on J33tt flop because I thought he was capped at JX (no 3-bet preflop) and would release. And he x/c TANKING the whole way down. Even on the river he took over a minute to call (call, not raise). He has JJ, the hand I was trying to rep, and says afterward he was worried I had quads. LOL.

Regarding the buy-in full argument, I am in complete agreement and I have a couple funny hands showing how bad people are at deep stack.

1) 1/2 NL around 2AM, stacks had gotten very deep

V1: UTG+1, friend of mine, MAWG, running extremely good, sitting on 2k+
V2: SB, fish running good, not a terrible player with 100BB stacks but clueless deep, sitting on about 1k
H: MP, 30ish WG, TAG, built up about 1.2k over past 8 hours
Other villains: Stacks vary but almost everyone has 500+ and there are no strong players besides me and V1. Most are way too loose pre-flop.

I have TT MP

V1 opens to 10 UTG+1, I 3-bet to 35 in MP, HJ calls, BTN calls, SB tosses out a black chip which is immediately ruled a call. He throws a fit saying it's a raise, gets the supervisor involved. It's ruled a call. SB looks mad. BB calls, and UTG+1 calls.

Flop (210) K93

I'm watching HJ and BTN as it's dealt and they don't look too interested. I hear SB announce all-in as soon as the K is shown, and he then mumbles something like "I hit that flop hard". I'm 99% sure he's FOS and considering calling with just my TT when UTG+1 throws a chip forward. I know he'll call pretty light but he has at least a K here so I fold as do the others. Turn and river brick.

UTG+1 shows AK, SB mucks face-up (by accident I think) AQ and storms away from the table. The biggest 1/2 pot I've seen to date gets shipped to my friend who now has so many red chips he's built a huge pyramid (base is like 9 stacks wide).

It was a pretty funny hand. I just wish I'd been the one to hero call.

2) 5/T NL, at the must-move table, a lot of players waiting on a T/25 game

Note: This hand is a bad beat but I'm including it to show how bad some players are deep, even in higher stakes games.

H: 30ish WG, have been at table less than an hour but my image should be pretty TAG. I bought in max (2500) and have won a few pots, now have about 3.2k

V: MAWG, Bad LAG, has PFR around 40, hyper-aggressive post-flop to the point of being spewy, but has managed to blow some people off their hands and build his stack a bit. I think he's waiting on T/25. He has about 3k.

I'm in the BB with 75

Folds to V OTB who opens to 30. I could 3-bet but figure he's calling too much and I don't want to get 4-bet either. So I just call.

Flop (65) 468

Jackpot. I expect this villain to C-bet 1000% so I x. He c-bets 40 and I x/r to 200. V calls. At this point I'm assuming he has a SD, 2p, maybe an OP.

Turn (465) 468A

Great card for me as it improves a lot of this guy's range and I still have the nuts. Again I check fully expecting him to bet again. V bets 300. Again I x/r, this time to 900. V thinks about 5s then rips it in for 1800 more! I'm pretty confused as to what he could possibly have. I figure he must have a set. I tell him I have the nuts as I toss forward a chip to call. He responds "Big draw".

River (5865) 468A3

I don't love it and am still processing what he meant by "big draw" but I have two hearts so I turn up my hand and he turns up K2 and wins the biggest pot I've been involved in. I don't get mad or anything. It's so absurd I just chuckle to myself.

But the point is...his hyper-aggressive play is just horrific vs. a tight player who has shown tremendous strength. Why is he calling OTF? He has K-high and backdoor draws. He has like zero FE OTT after I x/r TWICE. But he still rips it in with a naked FD. Although I lost this hand and haven't played 5/T since due to not having the roll for it, I take solace in the fact there are horrific players at every level, basically just giving away their money in deep-stacked situations where they don't understand the level of hand strength they actually need to play that way.

So... buy in full! Top off continuously. You do lose huge pots like the above occasionally, but 80-90 percent of the time you should be on the winning end when the money goes in 300BB+ deep.

1/3, 6 straddle mandatory UTG, eff stacks 250 (with V, deeper against others), 5 handed

V opens to 25 first to act after straddle. CO calls. Hero calls on button with QcJc. SB calls.

Flop ($100) Kc 8s 6c

SB checks, V bets $80. CO folds. Hero has sizing tell on V that tells him V doesn't have made hand.

Hero ships, SB folds. V tanks and says "You didn't raise pre, so you don't have a King... (he raised pre himself but lol whatever)" finally calls and shows AQ no club

Board bricks out

1/3, 500cap

Couple limps to hero who opens with ATcc to 22 ($450). BTN (covers, SB, EP limpers call

Flop (90) Kc4x3c
SB donks 50
EP shoves for 112
Hero smooth calls
BTN smooth calls
SB shoves for about 375 total
Hero calls
BTN tanks forever, eventually folds 44 face up table explodes.....

SB flips over red KQo (?!?!?)
EP 75cc

Turn Jc
River Jx

Table explodes some more

Worst fold ever.