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Old 07-17-2018, 10:11 PM   #1
jerrygarcia42
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Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

In a standard 1/2 game, as you're all aware, there can be many family pots.

When 5 people limp and you're getting such a great price, what is your range?

How about when you have 7 limps, do you complete with 92o?

Trying to tighten up my SB play and resist the urge to complete trash hands.
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:17 PM   #2
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

You should play tighter in the small blind as you're OOP for the entire hand when all of the significant money goes in.
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:24 PM   #3
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

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Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
You should play tighter in the small blind as you're OOP for the entire hand when all of the significant money goes in.

Thanks, I understand that general concept.
I'm asking more for when you're getting a huge price 12-1, do you limp any two cards, or do you muck J3o?
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:33 PM   #4
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

A reading from the book of Miller

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Before we go any further, I want to debunk a common no-limit myth. There are two words that have almost magical meaning to many no-limit players, encouraging them to play any and all hands as long as the stacks are deep enough. They are “implied odds.” The thought process goes like this:

“Sure, T 8 isn’t a very good hand. But every once in a while it’ll make a monster. And if I catch someone with top pair when I flop, say, two pair, trips, or a straight, I’ll win a whopper that will make up for all the little preflop bets I lose when I miss.”

It’s an alluring thought. And it can be used to justify playing nearly any hand there is. Unfortunately, the logic is basically bogus. Why?

Well, the goal of winning poker is to get an edge over your opponents. Whenever you think about playing a hand, don’t think about how you could win with the hand, think about how it will give you an advantage. Everyone gets dealt two cards. How do your two cards give you enough of a leg up on the competition that you’ll beat the rake on average?

Say you played with 10,000BB stacks (now that’s deep). Theoretically, even 72 could flop a big hand often enough to turn a profit if you managed to stack your opponents most of the time. But if you’re winning with 72, then what are your opponents doing with JT or QQ or K6? Are they all winning too? Does everyone win once the stacks are deep enough?

Of course not. Poker is zero sum (less than that if there’s a rake). If you are a long-term winner on average with your hand, then someone else must necessarily be a long-term loser with theirs. If you have 72, then what hands are you victimizing?

Well, it is indeed possible to make money with 72 with a deep stack, but you need something beyond your cards to build that edge for you. One thing you can do is concentrate on building bigger pots with your winning hands and losing smaller pots with your losing ones. That is one way to generate an edge. Another way is to steal. Since 72 will make a hand less often than your opponents’ hands, you need to steal a lot more to compensate.

So sure, any two cards can make a hand and win a big pot. But each of your opponents gets two cards too, and that’s exactly what they’re thinking, “If I make a big hand, I can win a big pot.” That’s not where your major edge is going to be. You’re going to steal smarter. You’re going to steal more often. And you’re going to win more with your medium-strength (e.g., two pair) hands than they do.

So what’s the point? The point is that out of position with bad cards, you don’t have an edge. Your opponents have cards too, and they have position on you. It’s easy to get seduced by “implied odds” and play small cards out of position, but the reality is that those implied odds are mostly illusory. If you’re in early position, just fold. You’ll save yourself a lot of grief.
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Old 07-17-2018, 11:37 PM   #5
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

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Originally Posted by jerrygarcia42 View Post
Thanks, I understand that general concept.
I'm asking more for when you're getting a huge price 12-1, do you limp any two cards, or do you muck J3o?
Turbo muck it, AINEC.

I will overlimp small PPs, suited aces and Ks and maybe the occasional 89o. Everything else worth playing from the SB is worth raising.

Not only do those dollars add up, but htos hands you flop something that is hard to fold add up even faster.
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Old 07-18-2018, 12:20 AM   #6
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

Wayyyyyy tighter than you think it should be
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Old 07-18-2018, 12:37 AM   #7
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

Something close to this is probably fine.


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Old 07-18-2018, 08:27 AM   #8
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

Too wide for any player who's not supremely competent post, imo. Get rid of those crap off-suit aces, suited Js and Ts that don't connect, most of the suited Qs too, K8o and K9o.

Of the stuff that remains, the high end of that should often be a raise, though it is table dependent.
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:40 AM   #9
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

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Too wide for any player who's not supremely competent post, imo. Get rid of those crap off-suit aces, suited Js and Ts that don't connect, most of the suited Qs too, K8o and K9o.

Of the stuff that remains, the high end of that should often be a raise, though it is table dependent.
'
Id say that range is too wide for even very good post flop players. The "I'm getting "9:1" or whatever odds is such a bad argument. That only tells me you dont really understand whats going to happen post flop with your trash hands.

Maybe someone can do some math that says you can call getting ~9:1 or higher profitably if you only continue with things like A7 or Q4s when you flop 2 pair and not when you flop 1 pair?

I dont believe hardly anyone can do it profitably if they continue with just 1 pair and I also dont believe that most people who plays those hands will fold TP.
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Old 07-18-2018, 08:41 AM   #10
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

This might be closer, 22.5% of entire range, as we continue to develop our post flop play. May be prejudiced too tight, as I rarely complete.

22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, A9o+, KJo+, QJo
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:10 AM   #11
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

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'
Id say that range is too wide for even very good post flop players. The "I'm getting "9:1" or whatever odds is such a bad argument. That only tells me you dont really understand whats going to happen post flop with your trash hands.

Maybe someone can do some math that says you can call getting ~9:1 or higher profitably if you only continue with things like A7 or Q4s when you flop 2 pair and not when you flop 1 pair?

I dont believe hardly anyone can do it profitably if they continue with just 1 pair and I also dont believe that most people who plays those hands will fold TP.
I happen to think the range is fine.

I don't even get what this post is saying. It opens by saying "even good players can't do this". Then it ends by saying "maybe you could play it if you're good enough". Weird.

Anyway, I agree that the "x to 1 pot odds" argument is not very compelling. But what is relevant are the implied odds. When you're only calling 0.5BB's, implied odds are usually through the roof.

Flopping a flush is roughly 100 to 1. You need to win 50BB's and theres already 5BB's in the pot. I don't recall the exact odds of flopping two pair, but its like 40 or 50 to 1. You only need to make 25BB's post-flop with that hand.

So in most cases when you do make a monster hand, you'll show a massive massive massive profit on your 0.5BB's call.

If you're worried about getting stuck multi-way, out of position with Q4s whenever a Q flops, then I guess fold pre. But I would strongly suggest folks try and think of a better way around this problem.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:20 AM   #12
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

Pretty sure we have covered this ad nauseum.

Search.


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Old 07-18-2018, 09:39 AM   #13
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

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This might be closer, 22.5% of entire range, as we continue to develop our post flop play. May be prejudiced too tight, as I rarely complete.

22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, A9o+, KJo+, QJo
I like this range, although I very often raise some of those hands if there are 3-4 limpers. Especially if the limping started in MP to LP. Those guys fold almost every time to a 7-8BB raise.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:40 AM   #14
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

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I happen to think the range is fine.

I don't even get what this post is saying. It opens by saying "even good players can't do this". Then it ends by saying "maybe you could play it if you're good enough". Weird.

Anyway, I agree that the "x to 1 pot odds" argument is not very compelling. But what is relevant are the implied odds. When you're only calling 0.5BB's, implied odds are usually through the roof.

Flopping a flush is roughly 100 to 1. You need to win 50BB's and theres already 5BB's in the pot. I don't recall the exact odds of flopping two pair, but its like 40 or 50 to 1. You only need to make 25BB's post-flop with that hand.

So in most cases when you do make a monster hand, you'll show a massive massive massive profit on your 0.5BB's call.

If you're worried about getting stuck multi-way, out of position with Q4s whenever a Q flops, then I guess fold pre. But I would strongly suggest folks try and think of a better way around this problem.
Where did I say that?
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:42 AM   #15
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

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I like this range, although I very often raise some of those hands if there are 3-4 limpers. Especially if the limping started in MP to LP. Those guys fold almost every time to a 7-8BB raise.
Correct, this range includes hands that should be raising rather than completing.
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:53 AM   #16
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

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Where did I say that?
It's in there. You'll find it.

That whole post is one big looped contradiction. If you untangle things, you'll understand why the ~40% range given in the pic above is completely fine.

You're saying a good player couldn't play that range.

Then you go on to say that it could be playable, if you're good enough to not overplay one-pair.

So which is it? Can a good post-flop player navigate a hand profitably with those holdings, or not?
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Old 07-18-2018, 09:56 AM   #17
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

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It's in there. You'll find it.

That whole post is one big looped contradiction. If you untangle things, you'll understand why the ~40% range given in the pic above is completely fine.

You're saying a good player couldn't play that range.

Then you go on to say that it could be playable, if you're good enough to not overplay one-pair.

So which is it? Can a good post-flop player navigate a hand profitably with those holdings, or not?
Dude, you are remarkably annoying. I never said that.
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:00 AM   #18
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

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Dude, you are remarkably annoying. I never said that.
Yes you did. Nevertheless, why don't you pick a side? I'm sure it's easy to be right in every post if you advocate all possible options. How about some conviction?

Can you call with A7o, and Q4s, or not?
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:11 AM   #19
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

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Yes you did. Nevertheless, why don't you pick a side? I'm sure it's easy to be right in every post if you advocate all possible options. How about some conviction?

Can you call with A7o, and Q4s, or not?
I said "Maybe someone can do some math that says you can call getting ~9:1 or higher profitably if you only continue with things like A7 or Q4s when you flop 2 pair and not when you flop 1 pair?"

I havent done the math so I dont know for sure. I suspect not. even when you flop 2 pair you will lose sometimes and I dont think you will flop 2 pair often enough anyway. I dont play those hands.

You have serious reading comprehension problems. I did not say what you think I said.

Also, why would anyone take anything you say seriously when you dont even track your win rate. You have no flipping idea how much you win. All you know is your sock drawer doesnt run out of money. If you dont know how much total money you win or what your win rate overall is, there's no possible way you have any idea what you win/lose from the SB. You state things like fact when you are just guessing based on your belief that you know everything already and couldnt possibly be wrong.

Im going to stop responding to you going forward. You are wasting mine and everyone else's time. Good luck.
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:17 AM   #20
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

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I said "Maybe someone can do some math that says you can call getting ~9:1 or higher profitably if you only continue with things like A7 or Q4s when you flop 2 pair and not when you flop 1 pair?"
the math has been done. You're asking an implied odds question. If you play your suited hands only for flush potential, you have 100 to 1 odds of flopping your hand (maybe 110, but w/e). At the cost of 0.5BBs, you would need everyone else in the hand to be stacked under 50BB's to even think about folding.

Same math for two pair, except the odds are only like 50 to 1, so cut all the numbers in half. Again, this has been done already in this thread and you're acting like "nyah, where's the math?"

And frankly, I'm surprised these numbers aren't common knowledge. Study more.

So there's your math. You can play these hands just for big-hand potential only and clearly generate a massive return on your 0.5BB investment. You can do that while not continuing with any weak made hands. There's your math. It answers the exact question you asked.

Twice now.

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I havent done the math so I dont know for sure.
It's an lol-easy implied odds question sir. You should be able to do this math, in your head, in-game, in about 0.8 seconds.

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I suspect not
Why suspect? Just figure it out, and answer the question.

Also, I didnt' mention the odds of making trips above. I'm not really sure what they are, I could look it up, but I know that combined trips, flushes, and two pair come out to 18 to 1 odds. So we need to win 9BB's when we flop 2pr+, and there is probably already half that much in the pot.

How in the world could profitability be suspect here??

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Im going to stop responding to you going forward. You are wasting mine and everyone else's time. Good luck.
I will bet the over

Last edited by RagingOwl; 07-18-2018 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 07-18-2018, 10:50 AM   #21
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

No, just no. Implied Odds are not what is possible to win, it is what you will win on average if you hit.

Do you really think that if you hit your flush you will get someone to put 50BBs in with a worse hand on average? Just how badly are your Vs playing limped pots?

Generally speaking, if you flop a flush and manage to get big action OTF, your equity is good, but not that great. Other flushes, pair+NFD, and sets are pretty much the only hands getting much money in on monotone flops. That means that 1) you have less odds to hit a flush on those hands where your Vs have a hand that could actually pay one off and 2) you'd better have a high one, it your RIOs are worse than your IOs.
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:01 AM   #22
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

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No, just no. Implied Odds are not what is possible to win, it is what you will win on average if you hit.
you're confusing three different figures.

1) is the maximum we can win based on stack size. In multiway pots, you can use the average, or most likely effective stack size to evaluate this. This is your Implied Odds
2) There are odds of making a hand with which you expect to make lots of money on average. With suited unpaired hands, those odds are around 18-20 to 1.
3) Then there is the average amount you can expect to win when you do make a big hand.

I'm not sure 2 and 3 have a name. But when someone says "Implied Odds" they mean #1

Quote:
Do you really think that if you hit your flush you will get someone to put 50BBs in with a worse hand on average?
Sometimes yes. But I don't just make flushes with my hands. I can make trips. I can make two pair. The odds of all these things combined require me to make ALOT less than 50BB's on average.

I feel like I'm repeating myself now. It's clear you aren't reading what I'm writing because you prefer to be combative. But here it is one more time.

The odds of making a big-value hand are only like 18-20 to 1. With a 0.5BB investment, we need to make 9-10BB's on average. There's already half that much in the pot.

Quote:
Just how badly are your Vs playing limped pots?
Pretty bad. I can't explain it. They must be getting terrible advice from somewhere.

Quote:
Generally speaking, if you flop a flush and manage to get big action OTF, your equity is good, but not that great. Other flushes, pair+NFD, and sets are pretty much the only hands getting much money in on monotone flops.
Oh come on.

NURSE!!?? Can we get some math over here??

What are the odds of getting overflushed with Q4s??

And everything else you mentioned has 7 outs or less. What do you call "great equity"?

Quote:
That means that 1) you have less odds to hit a flush on those hands where your Vs have a hand that could actually pay one off and 2) you'd better have a high one, it your RIOs are worse than your IOs.
Q4s would be 3rd nuts. Depending on which cards flop, it will be 1st or 2nd nuts some of the time. So, how big does our flush have to be?

And all this flush talk just ignores the other possibilities. Like we talked about A7o. You're 50 to 1 to make 2 pair. Are you really saying you can't average 25BB's in a multi-way pot with Aces-up?

Last edited by RagingOwl; 07-18-2018 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:12 AM   #23
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

That is incorrect. Implied Odds are not the maximum you could possibly win. They are "the amount you can expect to win if you hit your draw." http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy.../implied-odds/. Effective stacks are simply the maximum bound of IOs.
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Old 07-18-2018, 11:26 AM   #24
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

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Too wide for any player who's not supremely competent post, imo. Get rid of those crap off-suit aces, suited Js and Ts that don't connect, most of the suited Qs too, K8o and K9o.

Of the stuff that remains, the high end of that should often be a raise, though it is table dependent.
The specific thresholds are definitely floating, so sometimes raising the top end is fine and the bottom end you can call or not. But for 1/2 a bb when you're getting like 8 to1 or whatever at the lowest stakes, saying my range is too wide is laughable. You must be assuming that if you complete with Q3s you are like snap stacking off on Q J T flops or something everytime. If you are then obviously play way tighter.

But for competent post flop players this kind of range is completely reasonable.
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Old 07-18-2018, 12:32 PM   #25
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Re: Range for Completing the SB in Multiway Limped Pots

I specifically said that it was too wide for any player who's not supremely competent post.

If OP is asking about J3o, I'm confident that he does not fall into that descriptor yet.
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