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Old 02-19-2019, 12:38 AM   #1
Broomcorn's Uncle
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Raise or not

One of my infrequent casino visits. Incredibly loose 1-3 table, as example will show. Multiple players chasing every draw.

I have been ice cold. Won one hand in my first two hours when I flopped a flush out of unraised BB, and have not had a single raising hand. My stack is below average at 220. Several players with 700+.

Typical open is 15. I open for 20, UTG, with black JJ. I get 6 callers and silently wonder what it takes to earn a nit image.

Flop is QJ3, two hearts. BB (MAWW) who seems to have a clue, donks for 20. Hero?
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:10 AM   #2
QuantumSurfer
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Re: Raise or not

$80-100.
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:12 AM   #3
wj94
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Re: Raise or not

Call is fine. Shove is fine. Raise is fine. You probably shouldn't fold. Sets are cool.
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:13 AM   #4
hitchens97
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Re: Raise or not

Yup raising - not looking for this to go 4 ways for someone to hit their draw - somewhere between 60 to 80.
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:39 AM   #5
tmo1120
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Re: Raise or not

raise w this many players in the hand
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Old 02-19-2019, 02:04 AM   #6
monikrazy
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Re: Raise or not

Flatting seems pretty bad, raise to at least 80, more is probably better.
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Old 02-19-2019, 02:49 AM   #7
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Re: Raise or not

I make $80 I guess, more if I was deeper. Try to get 3 callers and then boat up on the turn while bringing the flush in.
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Old 02-19-2019, 03:44 AM   #8
wait
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Re: Raise or not

Stick it in their eyes with a psb left. Or flat. But mostly eyes. Raising to non all in amount here is ****ty.
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Old 02-19-2019, 11:36 AM   #9
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Re: Raise or not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broomcorn's Uncle View Post
Flop is QJ3, two hearts. BB (MAWW) who seems to have a clue, donks for 20. Hero?
lol
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Old 02-19-2019, 12:17 PM   #10
QuadJ
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Re: Raise or not

Board is too wet to consider a flat. I would go $100. It's actually a bit on the small side, this would be a good spot for a pot sized raise. But $100 is half your remaining stack so it's enough to deny odds.
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Old 02-19-2019, 02:24 PM   #11
wj94
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Re: Raise or not

If you call, some idiot with Qx might jam. If you raise, some idiot with Qx might fold. I don't hate calling. SPR is low enough already. But raising is fine too. So hard to play hands when you have the nuts!
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Old 02-19-2019, 03:34 PM   #12
gobbledygeek
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Re: Raise or not

It doesn't matter that you have the nittiest of nit images and just opened UTG. 6 other players happened to have a hand they are cool with seeing a flop with for just $20, each of them with the hopes of outflopping us to stack us (and getting IO of 17++:1, even their calls individually aren't atrocious, especially deep against the rest, but as a world working against us they're actually doing quite well). I'll leave it up to you whether you think this means you should adjust your preflop thinking (most think you shouldn't, but I disagree).

Anyhoo, with $160 already in the pot and just $200 behind and an extremely drawy board I would just shove. ETA: If not donked into I would have open shoved, although check/shoving ain't horrible either although it does risk the disaster of the flop checking thru.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 02-19-2019, 04:47 PM   #13
Broomcorn's Uncle
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Re: Raise or not

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
It doesn't matter that you have the nittiest of nit images and just opened UTG. 6 other players happened to have a hand they are cool with seeing a flop with for just $20, each of them with the hopes of outflopping us to stack us (and getting IO of 17++:1, even their calls individually aren't atrocious, especially deep against the rest, but as a world working against us they're actually doing quite well). I'll leave it up to you whether you think this means you should adjust your preflop thinking (most think you shouldn't, but I disagree).

Anyhoo, with $160 already in the pot and just $200 behind and an extremely drawy board I would just shove. ETA: If not donked into I would have open shoved, although check/shoving ain't horrible either although it does risk the disaster of the flop checking thru.

GcluelessNLnoobG
"Adjust pre-flop thinking" in what way?
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Old 02-19-2019, 06:14 PM   #14
twitcherroo
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Re: Raise or not

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Originally Posted by Broomcorn's Uncle View Post
"Adjust pre-flop thinking" in what way?
Here we go....
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Old 02-19-2019, 06:19 PM   #15
Jasaka
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Re: Raise or not

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Originally Posted by tmo1120 View Post
raise w this many players in the hand
Agree with this and mainly for this reason.

Unfortunately, your cold cards will have likely made your image super nitty so you almost certainly will get folds from hands you beat that might have called other players, but you don't really have a choice here. You gotta make it so if someone calls with a draw they are not getting the right immediate or implied odds. You have $200 left, so it's pretty much $100 here and $100 on the turn, or $80 here and $120 on the turn. The pot is already $160 so i would go to $100. Winning $160 uncontested isn't a bad outcome here.

Last edited by Jasaka; 02-19-2019 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 02-19-2019, 07:04 PM   #16
gobbledygeek
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Re: Raise or not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broomcorn's Uncle View Post
"Adjust pre-flop thinking" in what way?
It's just in reference to the fact that for some reason you think it's odd that 6 people called your EP open even though you haven't raised a single hand in 2 hours. It's not odd, it's completely standard.

Also, what do people think you have? Are they correct? In general, how is that going to affect the hand postflop (where 90%+ of your chips will be in play)?

Gjustsomethingtoconsider,imoG
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Old 02-19-2019, 07:29 PM   #17
MikeStarr
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Re: Raise or not

There's $160 in the pot when the action is on you. You only have $200. There's a flush draw and 2 broadway cards on the flop. There are 4 more players behind you.

This literally could be the most obvious All in Ive ever seen. Anything other than All in is a travesty.
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:19 PM   #18
Kurn, son of Mogh
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Re: Raise or not

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
There's $160 in the pot when the action is on you. You only have $200. There's a flush draw and 2 broadway cards on the flop. There are 4 more players behind you.

This literally could be the most obvious All in Ive ever seen. Anything other than All in is a travesty.
This, ainec.
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:32 PM   #19
jtm1208
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Re: Raise or not

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broomcorn's Uncle View Post
One of my infrequent casino visits. Incredibly loose 1-3 table, as example will show. Multiple players chasing every draw.

I have been ice cold. Won one hand in my first two hours when I flopped a flush out of unraised BB, and have not had a single raising hand. My stack is below average at 220. Several players with 700+.

Typical open is 15. I open for 20, UTG, with black JJ. I get 6 callers and silently wonder what it takes to earn a nit image.

Flop is QJ3, two hearts. BB (MAWW) who seems to have a clue, donks for 20. Hero?
Unless she 33 for bottom set and is trying to get raised so she can ship it in, I would say that she has no clue haha.

At your stack size, I'd go $95 and then ship turn. Live players at these stakes, IMO, just seem to respond differently to bets below $100 and are more likely to call/gamble. If the table is playing as loose as you say it is, I wouldn't be surprised if you went 3+ ways to the turn.

Like other have said: Call, All-In, Value raise are all decent options in this spot (obvi not folding). With this many players in the hand the most profitable play is to value raise in my experience (Shipping All-In is close and is still a ++++EV play)
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:40 PM   #20
bailashtoreth
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Re: Raise or not

pot is 160. you have 200. a standard raise in that sized pot would be at least 120. you'd have less than 1/2 pot left. shove. never underbet with a shortstack against 6 players. you'd get called in several places.

oh, and raise to 9. don't be the guy who goes along with raise sizes just bc. if that board had been AK4 with 6 callers, you'd have just wasted $11.
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:46 PM   #21
wait
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Re: Raise or not

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Originally Posted by bailashtoreth View Post
pot is 160. you have 200. a standard raise in that sized pot would be at least 120. you'd have less than 1/2 pot left. shove. never underbet with a shortstack against 6 players. you'd get called in several places.

oh, and raise to 9. don't be the guy who goes along with raise sizes just bc. if that board had been AK4 with 6 callers, you'd have just wasted $11.
2nd paragraph is worst advice I've read this year.
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Old 02-20-2019, 03:49 PM   #22
jtm1208
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Re: Raise or not

Was gonna post something similar. Goes from totally sound advice to full retard in same post haha

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Old 02-20-2019, 04:50 PM   #23
bailashtoreth
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Re: Raise or not

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Originally Posted by wait View Post
2nd paragraph is worst advice I've read this year.
2nd paragraph is correct whether you like it or not.
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Old 02-20-2019, 04:51 PM   #24
jtm1208
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Re: Raise or not

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Originally Posted by bailashtoreth View Post
2nd paragraph is correct whether you like it or not.
Doubling down, I like it

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Old 02-20-2019, 04:53 PM   #25
bailashtoreth
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Re: Raise or not

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Originally Posted by jtm1208 View Post
Was gonna post something similar. Goes from totally sound advice to full retard in same post haha

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same to you. you absolutely cannot back that up with any stats or sound poker judgment.

Raising bigger makes people more likely to play the way they should, and they're also more likely (correctly) to try to bluff you out of the bigger pots that you create for no good reason. so basically you have people playing with better hands in pots where it benefits them to bluff. both are bad for you. you profit when they play poorly not when they play well.

3x with 7 callers creates a 24bb pot. with 100bb stacks, that means you have 97 bb remaining and an spr of 4. you can reasonably bet tptk and bluffs here and expect fold. if you bet 16bb with tptk or draw, the pot is 56bb with one caller. that leaves 81 bb to bet on turn and river. you can bet .6 pot on turn and still have something left to bet otr.

7x with 4 callers creates a 35bb pot. that means you have 93 bb remaining and an spr of less than 3. opponents are much more committed to this pot, and bluffs immediately create a pot that is too big to fold with any top pair or draw. (say you bet 25 bb w your tptk or draw. anyone else with tptk or draw will call. now the pot is now at least 85 bb with ONE caller, and you have 68 bb left to bet on turn. that's terrible for both tptk and draws.) op said she got 6 callers. thats a pf pot of 49bb. Now she doesn't even have a pot sized bet left behind. that's more than 2 to 1 pot odds to see TWO STREETS! anyone can call profitably!

so go ahead and call me retard. i'll stick with poker instead of roulette.

Last edited by bailashtoreth; 02-20-2019 at 05:22 PM.
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