$1/3 game is playing super loose passive ($30 opens going 5 ways to the flop, lots of $600-800 pots, 4 other V's are > $1,000).

V1 ($2,300) - Sun running like I've never seen someone sun-run. My best read is that he's a loose-passive calling station but he's had it so often he may be playing outside his normal comfort level. Nice guy, immediately on my left. We've been chatting it up, he's talking a little strategy but I don't think he's a great player.

V2 ($415) - Seems pretty ABC. Hasn't been involved much, I've really been focusing on the fish/whales. He's hasn't been too active but he has raised my button straddle at least once I remember.

Played w/ V1 & V2 for about 3 hours. I assume they both view me as tight-passive-ish. I have actually been playing tight-passive, a game I don't normally play, because I'm guessing it's the best way to exploit this game.

V3 ($300) - First hand at table. Normally plays $2/5 and $5/10 but there are no seats open at the moment. I've seen him play loose-passive and LAG. No idea what his plan is tonight. If he remembers me he'll think I'm loose-passive if he has any read at all.

OTTH
H ($900) - staples button to $6.

V1 (SB) calls the $6 (he's been defending about 50% of SB's to my button straddle).

V2 (UTG +1) raises to $30 (same raise he's made before to my straddle, though he hasn't been raising much).

V3 (CO) flats the $30

H (BTN) looks down at AKo. H? I can flat, expect V1 to flat and see a flop w/ position, a $120 pot and 3 V's who's range I'm ahead of. Other option is a raise as I have a strong hand and could expect a fold from V1 and then if V2 shoves and/or V3 I'm probably going to have to play for $300-415 which isn't necessarily a terrible outcome. Thoughts? I feel like this is pretty standard but for some reason I'm confused onto what the right play is at this table at this time.

Raise big, imo. Given game dynamic and effective stacks, I don't care for a call here at all. If they all fold, that's fine. Still a good result. If you get calls, you should be able to fold out PPs with a c-bet that wouldn't have folded if the pot weren't three bet.

Raise to 140. Fold to a backraise from V1. Be prepared to get the chips in vs V2 and V3.

Flat-calling is also reasonable.

Hey man u really need to make that decision for urself depending on how comfortable u feel at ur specific table and if u think u have an edge over the other players in the hand. There is no correct answer here. Both raise and flat both have their merits.

Love flatting here vs aggressive V's who will continue with high frequency on all flops. Given position is also very important.

If u do 3b u need to be able to play 3b pots well in position.. don't just 3b because omg i has AK in position lets 3b because when they do 4b i always puke call it off and end up losing but its still the right decision in a bubble mathematically.

I hope this makes sense

Obviously never folding AK here.

Please keep in mind if u do decide to 3b and u get 4b u need to shove/call it off or else its a huge mistake aka lighting money on fire

@Nogyong thats a mistake. if you 3b with AK u need to be calling shoves even from OR or else flat is better

You want to raise to 140 then stack off to a backraise 4-bet for 900 vs V1 who we think is a passive calling station? Talk me through that and the range you're putting him on.

As I mentioned, if we raise to 140 we need to be be prepared to get the chips in vs V2 (the original raiser with 415) and V3 (he flat caller in the cutoff with 300).

ops sorry i forgot about stack sizes. so v1 calls the straddle with 2.3k and v2 raised with 415 and v3 flats with 300. we are calling v2 and v3 if they shove or else its a mistake if we 3b. obviously we arent calling our entire stack against the guy with 2.3k who limped into the pot lol

But yes my point was if we 3b we need to have an exact plan for what to do each way each V reacts. If v1 folds his 6$ and v2 reraise/shove and we fold after 3b its a massive mistake because then just flat pre would be infinitely times better

OK so far onboard with basically everything people have aid thus far.

H raises to $135. Idea being that I'm looking to either take it down or I'm going to call shoves from V2 or V3.

V1 flats the $135. I'm really surprises because I can't think of any hand that I'd flat the original $6 then flat $135. I've largely lot his range now.

V2 fairly quickly shoves over the top for $415 total, $280 more. V2 pre flop raising range is maybe top10-15%, but I have no idea what his 5b AI range is but obviously in general a $1/3 5b AI is monster.

V3 folds.

Now there's $710 in the pot, and it's $280 to me but I'm not closing the action and V1 behind had me covered and frankly isn't terribly predictable at this point.

I don't feel like flatting the $280 is an option as V1 has to be committed to calling the $280 at that point. Then I've created a ~$1,300 pot w/ only $500 behind and A high. On the other hand I could shove, creating a ~$1,500 pot, possible getting V1 to fold but I'm playing heads up for stacks with 'only' AKo. Not a terrible outcome, but this game i deep and loose and if I can find better spots later in the game I should jut rack up and leave. And there's a very real possibility that V2 has be crushed and my only real value in the hand is playing a side pot with V1 and it's going to be dry, I have AK, V2 could have 2 of my outs and V1 probably isn't folding any PP on a non-A or K flop.

H? Is this really a 4b/f spot? That's not something I do too often. Even after the hand is over I'm not 100% what would have been the best play in the long run. Thanks for the thoughts.

It looks like V1 has AK/TT+.
V2 looks like AK/QQ+.

I don't really like any option but my preference is:

Fold > call > shove

The reason why calling might be an option is because we had an initial read that V1 might be passive.

(This part grunched before I saw later flop action)

I actually raise smaller, to $100.

First, the raising part: I'm raising because I want to play AK against fewer than 3 opponents. Also, playing TP tends to be pretty stack-size sensitive. I don't want to play against a 300 or 415 stack (against which I'd be committed) and a 900 (effective) stack, against which I'm not committed. I'm happy to play either, but both complicates things.

Normally, I'd raise this the pot (to 130). But we need to consider our action to a 4b.

For either the 300 or 415 stack, we're getting more than 2:1 and it's a trivial gii. But if V1 comes over the top, I'm hating life. He's normally passive, which suggests a snap fold to the L/RR. But maybe he's getting frisky and we'd be getting some odds if he has QQ down.

I think a small raise fits the bill very well. We're still easily committed against a 4b from 300 or 415, getting 2:1 or more. If V1 comes over the top, we can either flat and play in position with a bit more wiggle room or fold if someone calls or we have a live read on V1.

Even the small raise should convince the shoe clerks and crumb bums to take a hike.

So I think a small raise is a bit better than a big raise. I wouldn't flat.


(No longer grunching.)
After I think flatting is a little better than jamming ourselves. I think we probably need to spike an A or K to win against V2's range. If we bink the flop (especially if we hit a K and V2 has AA), we're going to want V1 to help us cover our losses. OTOH, if we miss the flop and V1 bets, we're not going to see all five board cards, which would be disappointing. But the flop is protected and V1 is usually passive, so he may well not bet the flop. On balance, since we're going to see 60% of the board on the flop, I'd think flatting is a little better, but think either flatting or jamming is fine. I don't think we can fold.

As an aside, the "better spot" argument is usually just complete BS. In this case, however, it actually has some merit. If you gii and lose, you'll be back to max buy-in, and you'd rather have a big stack against the whale. Arguably, you could fold in order to preserve a relatively big stack for a more profitable situation later. Not a big factor, but something to consider nonetheless.

So 1 thought of call, 1 of fold. Any others?

Looks good; now shove.

With the straddle we are 150 bbs deep. Honestly, I don't like any of our options. If you are under-rolled, then fold, rack up, and leave. If you have the BR, then shove and take a ride on the variance train.

Well H tanked for about a minute, finally decided that V2’s 4b all-in was exceptionally strong and I didn’t know where V1 was so I folded. Actually felt pretty good that I was making a disciplined lay down.

Somehow V1 also folded closing the action which absolutely blew my mind. He showed 88 and V2 tossed over AQo. The spewiness was strong at this table. I told the guy great play, played another 2 hrs and left up 2.5 BI’s. Never ceases to amaze me how weird people play this game sometimes and how axioms like “4b AI is ONLY EXACTLY AA!!” Prove untrue in real life, at least in my games.

One factor I didn’t consider in game but should have is that people almost never believe that a straddle raise is a big hand. Had I taken this into account I probably would have found a call.

When V1 flats $6 then flats $135, I'm putting him on a lot of mid pocket pairs and suited connectors: hands like 77-JJ, JTs, J9s, QJs, QTs, etc.

When V2 jams I'm putting him on a decent range like {88+, AQ+}. I don't think he always has to be super nutted like KK+, given that it's only 70bbs after the straddle and especially if he's a $5/$10 player that has moved down in stakes (generally people play looser when they go down in stakes, since the absolute value of money is much smaller), but I don't think he'll be super weak either.

Nonetheless, I'm very confident that AK is ahead of both players' ranges, particularly V1 who almost never has KK+ when he takes this line, so I'm looking to shove the full 2.3k stack in here to fold out V1's dead money and stack off for a great price against V2.

6bet - I think you’re spot on there. I lost a good chunk of value by not analyzing it properly in real time.

I guess the only thing I would add is that you aren't "crushed" by V2's range really ever unless he ONLY does this with AA. I think V1's stack behind you scared you a bit and you didn't want to play AKo for $900. I get that, but if that is the case then you probably shouldn't be sitting that deep overall.

Further, I suspect that if we remove V1 from the hand, you shove over V2 all day and twice on Sunday.

Wouldn't kick yourself too much though...sometimes we all get flustered by a strange play by someone in a hand (in this case the $135 flat by V1) and we don't stop and re-set our brain to analyze before acting again. You won't make this same mistake again (and by "mistake" I mean the flustered part....its possible you could have reset and found a fold still).

Shorn - I definitely got confused by V1 flatting the $135. Like you said I would have called V2 & V3 AI all day. I’m not in the least worried $900 (been very fortunate in my life) but as I thought through playing a $1,300 main with a dry side 3 ways with A high I couldn’t figure a smart way to do it. One thing i’ve done a way better job of recently is if I ever lose track of what i’m Doing in a hand I just get out of it. More of a self imposed penalty than a stop-loss. In this case I didn’t have a plan for the flop.... so I didn’t go to the flop. Not a great outcome here, but still a principle i’m Comfortable with.

Appreciate the insight from everyone.

Meh, hand was played well.

V1 sticking around in the hand was quite unexpected. It's almost like he was originally intending to go for a limp/raise with KK/AK but changed his mind after he saw the action.

V2 showing AQ here is also a little surprising. QQ+/AK seems more likely.

I feel like 60% of the time this hand is played, V1 folds and we pick up $66 and maybe another 30% of the time we find ourselves in a race with one of the smaller stacks.