In LLSNL, it is not correct to limp low pocket pairs in early position. In LLSNL, it is not incorrect to limp low pocket pairs in early position. As with most things in poker, it depends.

It depends on your ability to make reads based on pre-flop bet-sizes.

It depends on your ability to determine whether the flop will go multi-ways.

It depends on your ability to maximize value while playing a set out-of-position.

It depends on your ability to turn an inferior hand into a profit.

It depends on your ability to call down with a winner when you don't have a set.

And as always, it depends on stack sizes and the likelihood of making at least 10x on your call.

Throwing around words like "always" and "never" is the hallmark of player who fails to recognize the numerous variables that should go into each and every decision.

It is often not ideal to limp low pocket pairs. It is sometimes ideal to limp low pocket pairs. It depends. It depends on you.

bet out flop or c/r flop. Both of these will give you enough info to see if you are behind or ahead. If you get flatted just c/f the turn especially if 4 diamonds come.

Although I do basically agree with a lot of this, the bottom line for me is that if I'm sitting at a live lowstakes table where limping 44 UTG ain't profitable, then I'm sitting at a horrible live lowstakes table. I get a table change and move to the one beside it, where the odds of there being two live lowstakes tables side-by-side in a poker room where limping 44 UTG is unprofitable is extremely unlikely.

GbigfanoflimpingG

Limp pre is kind of close. Even in LLSNL, people are getting better at not going broke with 1 pair (which is unfortunate). Also, the fact is that we're starting the hand with 90-150bb eff, and the fact that if the table is aggro at all, you're not going to see a flop unless you invest $12-18 into this which means you need to get $102 to 153 (before the rake) to break-even on your investment.

I think preflop is close and it really makes me sick thinking about it.

Edit, Agree with GG to an extent. If I'm at a 1/2-1/3 table where limping small pocket pairs in EP is -EV, you're usually at a very bad table (of course, this isn't the case if 2-4 maniacs are splashing tons of money around). I've been at 1/2 games where the skill level of the table is equivalent to a 5/10 and there really isn't a point in staying at tables like those if you're just interested in money.

Yeah limping EP could be fine. I don't like it much, usually prefer raising, but I definitely think there are spots for it.

This PF debate on limping PPs in typical 1-3s (or lower) is way overdone IMO.
This comes up all the time. In a vacuum it's probably darn close. Problem is, there is no vacuum. Many times it's fine, many times it's not.
I personally don't get to play poker much these days so if I'm sitting 1-2NL with a low PP UTG, hell yes I'm limping and I'll happily eat my potentially negative EV of $0.15 while I watch the flop.
I waste enough energy focusing on other situations to worry bout this.
And yea, maybe I'll never reach super stardom on the pro circuit by not focusing 25 hours a day on situations like this, but um... it's 1-2.
Now, when I play higher (or LHE), different story.

Check raise the flop, and ship any non diamond turns. As stated above if u are limp calling with 44 in early position you can't afford to play your hand so passively. Especially don't raise fold as you have plenty of equity in the hand if stacks are only around 100bb. Make the pre flop raiser pay for is likely overs and flush draw.

Check raise flop or lead. Playing sets scared in multiway lots here because you fear a flush is horrible thinking. It is way more likely they have the naked Ad than they had a made flush

You need to be more specific about the stack sizes for each player. It's very relevant and the range you gave is quite wide. Do you have $450 and the other guys each $200? Do you and OR and $450 and the other due $200?

You have to flop extremely well to even play those cards from the flop and on. Otherwise, if you're playing those consistently you are burning your money in the long run... And we are all playing for the long run, right? Not just set mine out of position to a raise with 44. Bad play.


If you happen to set, of course you're getting your money in.

GplaytowinG

it's about 3% that someone flopped a flush.

$1/$2 & $2/$5 players will often put a lot of $ in the pot chasing the flush if they hold the ace or king or queen of the flush suit.

On the turn the set still has nines outs to boat or quads.

Set over set is of course possible but usually just considered a cooler.

Best approach is to guess the best way to get your stack in on flop or turn.