Villain is a rec player that Ive never seen before. Im guessing he plays on Saturday once in a while. He seems standard. Probably thinks hes decent because hes seen poker on TV, but like most rec players, he's dead money long term. One hand he limped KQ in LP and then called a $40 raise. Flop QQ4 checked around. Turn 8...checked to him and he bet $50 into $120 pot. Preflop raiser called (from SB). River K....checked to him and he bet $100, then showed when preflop raiser (who is a pro) folded.

Another hand he bet a J84 flop...bet the J turn...got raised, and he shoved and lost to QJ (limped pot). He got stacked for $350-$400ish in that hand

OTTHs

#1) Villain ($450) opens to $20 in EP. Hero ($500) calls in the cutoff with QhQd. Both blinds call. I know 3 bet here is a good option as well, but villain wasnt raising very often at all preflop so I decided to flat him and see what happens.

Flop ($80) KhJh4s. Blinds check, Villain bets $40. I dont think anyone would blame me for folding here, but I called. Im not convinced villain has a King yet. Questionable especially with 2 blinds still in the hand. Both blinds fold so its heads up.

Turn ($160) 3h. Villain instabets $80. He bet so fast that he couldnt possibly even considered what the turn card meant to him or me. What do you do here?


#2) Straddled pot. UTG limps. Villain ($335) limps in EP. I make it $40 with QsQc (I cover). LP calls, button straddler calls. UTG folds. Villain calls.

Flop ($170). 8h7c3h. Villain checks, I bet $80. Folded back to villain who shoves for $295 total. At first glance this kinda seems like an easy call getting 2.5-1. There are several draws he could have. Some combo draws. He could have something like 99-JJ.

But does a standard rec player shove with draws often enough for this to be an easy call after thinking about it more? I think rec players tend to play more scared and play draws passively and go nuts with made hands.

Hand 1 I fold. I don't see bluffing working against the player described, and even if we improve we won't know what to do facing a river bet.

Hand 2 I call. He could also have 98, A8, A7, etc. And if he wants to set mine for over 10% of his stack pre, let him.

It's reasonable to question the right play since he's a rec player and check raises usually mean they have the goods from that player type, but he's already demonstrated he can overvalue a hand from the J84J hand, and SPR is under 2 so we're just committed here.

HH1: 3! pre, as played fold.

HH2: Pretty easy call.

#1 - Kinda weird. His flop bet says he has it. His turn bet says he doesn't have anything. He obviously does not have hearts, the most profitable play is to make it 225 and watch him fold 90% of the time. We have the Qhearts, so we still have outs against most of his range if he doesn't buy it.

#2 - Yeah, most of his value hands beat us, and we are 3:2 faves against his flush draw hands, but I still instacall this. He is more likely to have A8 or 99 than a set.

Hand 1: nice job preflop. This is a spot I see a lot of players make mistakes by just seeing QQ and auto raising. I've saved a ton of money by not going broke in these spots. Flop you could fold for sure but without more info I'm ok calling once. Fold turn. Once I know he's willing to bet without Kx in that spot if be more willing to continue but that's not this spot.


Hand 2: why was the cbet so small? If you'd bet larger the flop call would have been much easier. Just curious about your sizing. As played you can probably fold since the read is standard rec player. Those guys aren't shoving very often. You're either slightly ahead or way behind. Good fold in the long run id say. But I could be persuaded otherwise. You didn't mention him raising over someone I don't think. So this is a different level of aggression.

As long as you didn't go broke in either hand is say decently played.

H1: 3! pre, and I think I actually fold flop, I hate folding turn when we improve but it's probably best, not sure what minimum bet would have to be to get us to call.

H2: I'm pretty sure we're behind.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using 2+2 Forums

Grunge:

Hand 1, fold. You seem to have heart outs but maybe not, he could easily have AxAh or AhKx. Either way has not bluffing here. Definite 3bet here pre, you want to get heads up w/position and define his hand. I almost always 3bet QQ except against absolute worsts players or you're pretty certain you're ahead (from reads/past villain experience). Only purpose flatting serves here is if you flop a set or he has JJ/TT and board comes all under=5 cards bunched together less than TT and he's not getting allin with a board such as 87532 or 98854, right?

Hand 2.

"But does a standard rec player shove with draws often enough for this to be an easy call after thinking about it more? I think rec players tend to play more scared and play draws passively and go nuts with made hands. "

Yeah, I think so. What was his mood? Was he tilty at all or tired/bored? On river odds are good enough to call like you said could easily have JJ/TT. It is player dependent tho. Some villains like him never get allin on draws, hard to tell for us of course but IME this villain has some made hand=overpair/2pair/set.

I do question your assessment of this player tho:

"Villain is a rec player that Ive never seen before. Im guessing he plays on Saturday once in a while. He seems standard. Probably thinks hes decent because hes seen poker on TV, but like most rec players, he's dead money long term."

This seems like a strong statement for some villain you've never seen before. He could be a big winner of course. He could be better than you. From a few hand histories he prob plays different from you but that doesn't mean he's a loser. When playing unknown's wrong assessments can go very expensive.

(Not trolling here, just trying to help)

grunch.

hand 1: i play the same way pre because of read. if we have seen him as PFR, that would be what i base my flop decision on (ie if he is auto cbetting). if he's an unknown, i'll call flop and probably fold turn

hand 2: i think we see 88 and 77 here a lot. YMMV, but rec players i play with would call T9hh here for 2 streets, rather than raise

#1) I raised to $180 and he folded. Its a tough spot because I could have the best hand and best draw, the worst hand and worst draw or some combination. I just didnt believe him when he bet the turn without even thinking about it. I think if he had the flush, AhAx or AhKx he would really try to think about what his best play is.

#2) I tanked, figured pot odds and finally called. I think its a bad call though. Against any reg who is at least a little bit aggro I think its an easy call but I rarely see rec players who dont play very much going nuts with draws. I lost to 87.

Today I raised QQ to $30 and got 2 callers. Flop was 7c5c4d with a FD. I bet $55 into the $90 pot and a guy shoved all in to $300 total. I instacalled him because I know he has a huge range there and is very aggro. He had Ac9c (I lost that one too ).

I kicked myself for calling vs the rec player even though pot odds make it look like an easy call.

He had been at the table for an hour and half or so. I had several other hands to watch him play to determine he wasnt very good. I just didnt list all of them here to save time. We can start with the fact that he open limped KQ in LP and then called a $40 raise. That alone tells me hes a rec player who is out of his depth in this game.

In this hand he limped 87 in EP and then called a $40 raise when he only had $295 behind. Hes not good. He just out flopped me and the pot was just a little too big and gave me the right odds to call. We actually played these 2 hands in reverse order from what I posted so I got some of the money back from him. He busted a few hands later doing something dumb.

Hand #1, I don't understand your raise. Protecting against a 5 outer seems like the only reason, and I don't see how that could outweigh all the benefits of calling.

Hand #2 I'm laughably incapable of doing two things at once. Talk and tie my shoes? Not a chance. But even I could place a drink order while making this call. Forget Vietnam hat. Dude would need to be wearing Korean War vet hat before this is even a spot.

Hand #1...

We've had similar discussions like this here before. I still don't know if I'm right or not, and still havent been convinced Im wrong either (about raising). What do you do when you dont know if you have the best hand or not? The best draw or not? I might need another heart to win or he might need another heart to win.

He might bet another heart on the river without one, hoping I cant call or he may have the Ah. He could have AhQx or AhJx and a raise now is correct. There are just so many possibilities and I really dont know where I am in the hand. The one thing Im almost certain of is that he doesnt have a flush and that he cant be certain that I dont have a flush.

#1
This should be a pre flop 3! To $60-70.

#2
Tougher spot. I'd prefer a little more history/read , but without any I think it's a call

Nothing wrong with that at all. I do it a lot of the time. But its not a mandatory 3bet. I sometimes call with QQ and I sometimes 3 bet with KTs. Its all player and situation dependent otherwise you will be too readable.

Advice based on how the hand was played up to that point is most helpful.

I'm with you that it can be a confusing spot. When people auto bet in a weird spot like that, I guess they are letting us know they are just button clicking. Just seems like call turn, call river is better than raising the turn.

Agreed. No standard with QQ pre, call or raise both fine.

If you're a 3betting machine then QQ should be in the value part of the range probably.

because V never has hearts there. we are repping hearts and he simply can't stand the heat.

Raising to fold Kx might be fine if that's your point, but OP seemed to be suggesting he was raising because he was probably ahead.

For hand 1 betting quickly is more often a sign of weakness than strength, against a player like described choosing between raise/fold/call can be difficult because they don't always have a good grasp of their own hand strength.. as played I would probably call and maybe try to steal it on the river if villain could fold a k

Hand 2 is a snap call

I dont believe I said that I was ahead. I said I could have the best hand and best draw....the worst hand and worst draw...or some combination of the two. Im almost positive that he doesnt have a flush so I wanted to put the tough decision on him instead of it being on me if I call and he bets the river.