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Old 04-12-2018, 10:12 PM   #1
I_Cant_Win
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QQ straddled pot vs 4 bet shove

Straddled pot 2 limpers for 6 and V on button raises to 21, 279$ eff

Hero : QQ Sb 400$ eff
Hero raises to 54
Big blind : moves all in for less

Folds around to button who proceeds to push all in

Hero?

V is older Asian lady. Doesn't seem to have AK and JJ in her all in range preflop putting on a 4 bet.

Saw her limping in with 10 10 on the CO with 4 limpers and made a mental note that she is probably super nitty.

Im heavily leaning towards folding here. Seeing how near 100% if not 100% of her range is KK and AA and never a worse pair than QQ nor can I see her doing this with AK

The question is OOP do I 3 bet here with QQ to isolate button? Maybe 3 bet bigger? Or is 3 betting smaller against a player like her much better long term? If by chance she has JJ she only has to call 33 more to see a flop and if I get jammed on I'm not committed and can fold against super nits. Is flatting even an option OOP? Set mining with QQ seems stupid OOP, if I were to slow play I would much rather flat in position than OOP

Thoughts?
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:47 PM   #2
Koss
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Re: QQ straddled pot vs 4 bet shove

3-bet is fine, your sizing is on the small side though. I'd go $75 or $80. QQ getting shoved on this deep is usually a fold. If you're this confident in your read you pretty much have to fold. I would've 3-bet bigger but folded to the jam.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:56 PM   #3
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Re: QQ straddled pot vs 4 bet shove

Call seems fine. 3bet might be a touch small, but nothing terrible.
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Old 04-13-2018, 09:40 AM   #4
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Re: QQ straddled pot vs 4 bet shove

Change V from "old Asian lady" to "young Asian guy" and insta-call. But she has to have a good number of AK combos in her 4! range to make this a call. I don't think she does, so I fold (particularly given your smallish 3! size....might have ended up saving you $$).
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Old 04-13-2018, 09:49 AM   #5
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Re: QQ straddled pot vs 4 bet shove

Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Cant_Win View Post
Saw her limping in with 10 10 on the CO with 4 limpers and made a mental note that she is probably super nitty.

100% of her range is KK and AA and never a worse pair than QQ nor can I see her doing this with AK
I would agree that she's super nitty and fold.

Raise more pre, to like 65
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Old 04-13-2018, 11:29 AM   #6
gobbledygeek
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Re: QQ straddled pot vs 4 bet shove

Against a super nitty older asian lady who I've seen overlimping the Button with TT, I'm not so sure I'm thrilled with the 3bet preflop. Even though flatting will likely get us into an awkward 4+way bloated pot OOP, against this opponent we might be setmining anyways, and with no significant dead money in the pot otherwise, I think that's what I do. Yeah, I'm setmining with QQ, but against some opponents that's an ok line, imo.

As played, trivial fold, imo.

ETA: Unlike others, if we are 3betting preflop I think this is a pretty decent size. We offer about 8:1 for her to call to setmine against us, which is typically what I like to offer people to setmine against my 3bets (as they're making a mistake doing so). On top of that it costs us pretty much the minimum to then fold to a reraise (which is like 99% AA at this point, imo).

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Old 04-16-2018, 07:07 PM   #7
I_Cant_Win
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Re: QQ straddled pot vs 4 bet shove

I fold after thinking about it for 30 seconds. Showdown between her and the all in for less. She is holding AA, good fold on our part... Poker gods award me with a queen in the window. Poker justice I would've won
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Old 04-16-2018, 07:15 PM   #8
Minatorr
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Re: QQ straddled pot vs 4 bet shove

Grunch.

Very easy fold to the 4b shove from nitty older lady. This is a cold 4b, not a 4b. You can fold everything but KK/AA to cold 4bs until high stakes and do just fine. Even folding KK to cold 4bs isnt unreasonable, especially live vs your average player/esp nitty players

Plus BTN 5b jamming over a cold 4b. At least one player has KK+ or both here. This is like a snap fold

3b bigger
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Old 04-16-2018, 09:00 PM   #9
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Re: QQ straddled pot vs 4 bet shove

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Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
Call seems fine. 3bet might be a touch small, but nothing terrible.
3x + the limpers would be $81.

4x + the limpers (better sizing when OOP) would be $102.

$54 is just way too small no matter how you look at it.

OP, if you don’t give her any AK or JJ then there’s nothing to discuss. The better discussion would be whether to even 3! pre given you’ve labeled her a nit and have observed her overlimp TT from the CO.

If she’s truly that nitty then take a super exploitative line and set mine with QQ.

Last edited by johnnyBuz; 04-16-2018 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 04-17-2018, 11:19 AM   #10
gobbledygeek
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Re: QQ straddled pot vs 4 bet shove

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
$54 is just way too small no matter how you look at it.
The way I look at it is that our sizing is asking her to call $33 to win $12 (limpers) + $279 (her effective stack) + $50 (assume this is BBs stack) - $9 (what would be raked/BBJ/tipped in my game) = $332, or implied odds of 10:1 (which becomes even less if BBs stack is much smaller, i.e. if it was $17 then the IO are only 9:1). This seems in the appropriate conservative ballpark to me (I typically attempt to target a very conservative 8:1 but this is pretty close), and on top of that we can make very easy check/folds against her on A/K high boards (as I doubt she's exploiting us).

If we are 3betting (which I'm not a fan of), I think this is really nice sizing especially since it lets us fold for as cheap as possible to a 4bet, imo.

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Old 04-17-2018, 11:33 AM   #11
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Re: QQ straddled pot vs 4 bet shove

There's a straddle and 2 limpers which is $18.

$54 is a ridiculously small 3!. You are never getting a fold here.
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:41 PM   #12
gobbledygeek
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Re: QQ straddled pot vs 4 bet shove

While I'm all for taking down pots preflop (I think it's highly undervalued especially at non-payoffy tables in high rake games), I'm not necessarily thinking that's what we're attempting to do here against the Button when we have QQ?

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Old 04-17-2018, 01:12 PM   #13
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Re: QQ straddled pot vs 4 bet shove

It's not the goal in and of itself but scooping 14 BB's rake free is a fine outcome.

We also extract more value when they do decide to call with worse and lower the SPR (your favorite concept) which helps diminish our positional disadvantage.
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Old 04-17-2018, 01:27 PM   #14
gobbledygeek
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Re: QQ straddled pot vs 4 bet shove

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
It's not the goal in and of itself but scooping 14 BB's rake free is a fine outcome.

We also extract more value when they do decide to call with worse and lower the SPR (your favorite concept) which helps diminish our positional disadvantage.
Yeah, I don't disagree that scooping 14bbs rake free isn't a fine outcome, and with AK I think it would be a fistpump outcome; with QQ, I dunno, I sorta think we're fine with getting called by worse. Especially since we can safely check/fold A/K flops vs her. Not too worried about SPR / OOP here as it will be << SPR 2 HU; disadvantage of being OOP is greatly diminished in super small SPR pots (and is actually an advantage in first-to-bluff-for-a-PSB-shove cases).

But, then again, I'm probably not 3betting in the first place, so whatever.

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