$1/$2 live cash

Pretty lively table, with some big stacks (800+, in seats 1,2 .. accumulated from hitting numerous river straights).

These seats calling almost all raises, with anything connected .. but, not, re-raises.

Sitting in seat 6, UTG +1, pick up QQ stack - $280

Asian gent UTG, who has been v nitty, raises to $15. stack - $350

I hate playing this hand OOP, but, know, if I flat, there will b at least 4 callers.

I presume, the normal play, would be a re-raise to $50 or so, and just thin the field etc .. and not get into tricky post-flop issues - but, is there any merit to basically set mine ?

It seems a horrid spot .. its a quality hand, does everyone just raise, and hopefully get it heads up ?

Yeah, I'd just go ahead and 3-bet/fold. It's concerning when a nitty guy raises UTG, but his range is likely wider than just aces and kings. Queens is a very strong hand obv.

If you're 100% sure that there's going to be 4 callers behind you and you're sure that no one else is going to 3-bet, I guess you could make a case for set mining since it's possible to win a HUGE pot on the right flops on this action table. Queens is normally way to strong of a hand to be set mining though.

If he's UTG and your +1 you have position on him.

I'm 3 betting here smallish to 40 or so. If it he makes it >100 then I guess we can fold but I don't like it.

If you flat you're going to have the best hand a ton of the time and you will be put into tough spots:

Like, when any over card comes.

or

When no over cards come and villain value bets his 99.

Just set mining with QQ is bad, imo.

He is talking about being oop vs others if he flats.

Thx, in the actual hand, did flat, and the habitual limpers, limped.

so, 5 to the flop ($69) 952

BB checked, initial UTG raiser checked, and I bet $50.

(I have QQ).

Seat 2, the haibitual straight/flush drawer, called.

Turn ($169) K

I bet $$75, leaving me $135 behind).

Seat 2, calls, after a small tank.

River ($319) 10

I check, he checks. If i bet anything here, am only getting called by a flush.

3 betting pre, would have stopped this - but, then the nitty asian could have come over the top, and would have probably had to fold.

Ughhh

I doubt the nitty Asian would have come over the top if he checked that flop and folded to your bet, and if he did, it's just an easy fold.

3bet is best. I would have checked turn. Would have needed a table read to call a bet.

I would not bet river. You're not only getting called by flushes, but rarely are you getting called by worse (JJ and maybe AT).

The best reason for cking rvr is to let the asian bluff missed clubs...If you think he cks back alot then betting is better.. You have the best hand alot here..

We checked .. Seat 2, had 46

You're being very results oriented.

I'm not 3betting utg pre unless it's a very loose sticky player. Especially not if it's my first 3b.

As played post is perfect. I definitely go for the value db. River check back is great

You WANT to go multi way with bad players with weak ranges. You're going to stack JTo on Jxx so often. If you 3b pre and the weak chasers fold you avoid all those great situations too

What are you waiting to 3bet with? AA or KK only? Why do you want to play
QQ to setmine or play it multi-way? This is exactly what happens, and that's not being results oriented. I do not want to go 4+ to the flop with QQ, esp out of position.

In a squeeze situation there's more reward in 3bing to thin the field and get value so in that case you can 3b wide.

I think you're too worried about multiway situations with these potentially sticky loose bad players. If people are only calling behind you with small pps, scs and suited aces then thinning the field may matter. But live players show up with so much crap 78o, j4ss etc. I'm not worried about letting their wide weak range take a flop. You're going to way make up for giving up some preflop equity in situations where you get a ton of value post.

This of course assumes you can dump qq post if you think you're behind

I might not have a 3b range in this spot at all

This x1000. They might write this on my tombstone.

3! small, fold if he 4!s. Calling puts you out of position with a hand that you're loathe to fold on most flops. Way too likely that you end up pot-committed before you have any idea where you're at.

Also if you think utg is calling 3bs wide and then calling down wide I can see more of an argument for a 3b but you said he seems tight and nitty.

If he's going to call a 3b in this spot and mash call on a lot of runouts then a 3b could slowly become better than a flat.

Remember you want to play lots of pots with the weakest players when you have strong hands.

I want to play lots of pots with strong hands, but not single pots against lots of players.

Are you really flatting AA and KK here? AK? Please come play with me.

I'm surprised this discussion has gotten even this far. I agree w/ Javanewt.

Loose, spewy players... primary reason to 3! to thin field.
Somewhat nitty Asian guy raises preflop, BUT we have position...
- if we 3! and get called, we are IP vs. UTG
- if we 3! and get 4!, easy fold due to UTG's image.

You absolutely want to avoid **** like that 64s flatting preflop in a MW pot; thus, a 3! is a must.

There is no incentive for being tricky with premium holdings vs. terrible players who can't think past level donk.

3! next time, watch what happens... good luck.

I think this is closer than people think. Calling the $15 raise is going to clearly be profitable. We could take down some big pots, but will also be in some tough spots occasionally despite having a low SPR because we're likely to see a flop with so many opponents. Also, spots when we flop an overpaid can lead to some tough decisions (but also give us chances to value bet and get called by worse).

If we 3-bet, we're much more likely to know when the nitty villain has AA and KK when he 4-bets us. When he doesn't have those hands, he will often fold either PF or to a postflop c-bet.

If we reraise to $45 or more, I'd expect villain to fold a lot of hands we beat. As a result, I'd reraise on the smaller side if I decided to reraise him.

So, Steve, you want to play QQ oop against 4+ opponents? Why? What flop w/o a Q do you want to see? Heck, I don't want to see some with a Q.

Don't we want to find out if villain has AA or KK?

I'm not saying that calling is clearly the correct play. I probably would 3-bet here. I just don't think it's clearly the correct play like others think in this thread.

I'd like a 3-bet more if villain has a wider range.

Flops I wouldn't mind seeing would be something like 8-4-2 or J-7-3.

Also, even if we don't flop a set, a small percentage of the time we will get a set on the turn or river and that adds some value.

Edit: Another type of flop that I'd like to see is something like T-6-6. Some of those types of flops wouldn't bother me much.

I agree that it isn't clearly a raise and that raising UTG+1 here represents massive strength, but we are UTG+1 here with presumably 8 other players to act before it reaches back to the initial raiser. If we are in later position (MP2, CO, BTN) and there are no limps to this point then I heavily consider flatting, maybe, but playing a potential 4+ way hand OOP at $1/$2 is just an easy way to spew money rather than make it. Once you call from UTG+1, many players thinks it is "good" to play their suited-gappers, suited-connectors, low PP, AXs because of perceived "odds" (or, in fact, actual good pot odds and position), leaving us extremely susceptible to all wet flops and in bad position to really do much unless it is a very dry board.

But do we make more money on most dry boards in multi-way pots here than when we 3bet? Not really there either; assuming we have 4-5 people to the hand, it is a $60-$75 pot instead of a almost definite (at least) $80 pot on the flop. I'd say you want to play this hand in position against the original villain for maximum value. 3bet to $40 and re-evaluate if he 4bets, but I wouldn't automatically fold if he 4-bets either. I've seen plenty of people overvalue AK and 4bet there, but the optimal play is to 3-bet PF and go from there.

How you play this depends greatly if the nitty player has a bet sizing tell. A lot of them do, and when a 7.5BB+ open comes from such a player UTG, the queens hit the muck right away and never look back. This means KK+ only.

If he could make that raise with unpaired Broadways, then a smallish 3! is in order to cull the herd, and you can still get away if the nit comes over the top. If the loosey goosies and fishy fish trail in with random garbage, that's OK too: play Poker post.

UTG+1 my reraising range is super super tight.

I generally hate showing up with the very bottom of my (perceived) range, and that's what showing up with QQ here is.

So you call to set-mine? You missed.

It sounds like you have an agreement with the people you play with. When you raise they fold all hands worse than yours and raise all hands better than yours. Hopefully they can all see your cards and they are all 100% honest.

As the hand was played I'll write the same thing I wrote to an earlier thread. Most people are calling raises with a range of hands that are mostly suited or paired. We are not often getting three streets of value from worse hands on a monotone flop.

We didn't flop a set. Our hand didn't improve from pre-flop to flop. We're behind lots of hands that were ahead of us pre-flop.

Against 4 random hands we're winning this pot about 50% of the time. Once we bet the flop (and for sure the turn) we've folded out virtually every hand that's behind us.

no, not set mine. just call to play poker

i'd rather 3bet here with 98s than QQ.

3betting the nit's open when he's UTG announces to everyone we have position on that we have QQ+ and make decisions accordingly.