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Old 08-19-2016, 10:04 AM   #1
GEORGE_LUZ
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QQ facing big turn raise

Playing 1/2 NL 10-handed

Hero: been at table for 2 hours, up $300 due to flopping middle set in one hand and rivering the nut flush in another. I am probably seen as a TAG, maybe a little nitty. I have been playing tighter than usual preflop as 4 of the 5 best players at the table are to my immediate left. I have $503

Villain: probably the best player at the table. He has been playing a solid TAG game, isolating limpers, raising in position, c-betting with the right frequency, etc. He has been showing down mostly winners, haven't seen any big bluffs. He covers me.

OTTH

Folds to hero in MP who raises to $10 with QQ
Villain in CO calls
Button calls
BB calls

Flop ($40) 937
BB checks, Hero bets $25. Villain calls. Button and BB fold.

Turn ($90) 6
Hero bets $50. Villain looks over my stack and raises to $170 total. Hero???

Ugh. I hate these spots OOP with overpairs when deepstacked. They suck. If I had 100 BB, I would be more willing to GII here with QQ on this board. But for 250 BB, obviously not.

The villain's big raise seems very polarizing. Given my image and the way the hand has played out, my hand looks like an overpair. Therefore, I believe one of two things is happening here.

1. Either the villain has 99, 77, 33, T8s, 97s and is looking to get stacks in now. (Is this MUBsy thinking?)

Or...

2. The villain is trying to blow me off my overpair with some sort of flush-draw, straight draw bluff. (Do people do this at 1/2?)

I know the Baluga Whale Theorem states that one should strongly reconsider the strength of one pair-hands when facing a raise on the turn.

What should I do here? Folding seems a little tight, calling OOP seems awful, and raising seems suicidal.

Did I make a mistake prior to this decision? Should I have checked the turn to keep the pot small? Should I have bet bigger on the turn? Thanks for the help
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:26 AM   #2
Javanewt
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Re: QQ facing big turn raise

This is a tough one, but I probably fold. If he's bluffing, good for him. However, so many 1/2 players won't fold an over pair here, and he probably knows it, so I think he's going for a bit of value and trying to get stacks in on river. I think you can find a better spot -- hit a set or nut flush against him
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Old 08-19-2016, 10:46 AM   #3
answer20
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Re: QQ facing big turn raise

1) Raise more PF .. 3 callers is too many. Yes, I know this opens up a ton of discussion about staying consistent and not letting on about your hand strength. Not my point. My point is that if you are going to raise you need to raise to the table 'threshold' to limit your opponents. This varies from table to table for sure.

2) Certainly debatable (and hopefully not results driven) but once I am HU .. and against the best player at the table .. I would consider c/c this Turn and play my hand more like a missed AK. The main reason being that against a good player you aren't going to get much value from them unless they really connected with this board and the Turn card would certainly help him more than you based on your image. Yes, it may seem like I want to give a free card .. but I'm looking at the best place to get a 2nd dose of value from a good player. If he leads out on the Turn and we call, then we send a message to him and maybe get a free showdown on some Rivers.

I agree we need to get value for our 'good' hands, but the Turn card hit the board (not us) and by betting out we open up the FE door that a good player may suggest we walk through. The fact that he checked out our stack means he did some math and wanted to make sure that we did, in fact, have FE against his raise .. which we do. (Or he is setting up for stacks on the River)

I see this as a lot of draws as well as made hands that could be (obviously) counterfeited on the River.

You're not GII for 250BB here .. It's only 60BB to call and you may be ahead getting 1.6 to 1. If he's a smart player he knows you may not pay off his flush or overcard on the River. Doubt he has you on a flush draw when you bet here on the Turn based on your image, so he can 'safely' put you on TT/JJ.

I call here a lot. You have the Qc in your hand. If this player can double barrel semi-bluff at me if I check the River, then yes, he is a good player .. which is all the more reason to c/c the Turn. GL
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Old 08-19-2016, 11:04 AM   #4
Javanewt
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Re: QQ facing big turn raise

I totally agree with more pre (and maybe a little more on flop) and, even though checking the turn is giving a "free" card, I agree that against the "best player" at the table, deep with an over pair, it's not a bad idea.
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Old 08-19-2016, 11:46 AM   #5
cannabusto
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Re: QQ facing big turn raise

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEORGE_LUZ View Post
Playing 1/2 NL 10-handed

Hero: been at table for 2 hours, up $300 due to flopping middle set in one hand and rivering the nut flush in another. I am probably seen as a TAG, maybe a little nitty. I have been playing tighter than usual preflop as 4 of the 5 best players at the table are to my immediate left. I have $503

Villain: probably the best player at the table. He has been playing a solid TAG game, isolating limpers, raising in position, c-betting with the right frequency, etc. He has been showing down mostly winners, haven't seen any big bluffs. He covers me.

OTTH

Folds to hero in MP who raises to $10 with QQQ facing big turn raise:QQQ facing big turn raise:
Villain in CO calls
Button calls
BB calls

Flop ($40) 9QQ facing big turn raise:3QQ facing big turn raise7QQ facing big turn raise:
BB checks, Hero bets $25. Villain calls. Button and BB fold.

Turn ($90) 6QQ facing big turn raise:
Hero bets $50. Villain looks over my stack and raises to $170 total. Hero???

Ugh. I hate these spots OOP with overpairs when deepstacked. They suck. If I had 100 BB, I would be more willing to GII here with QQ on this board. But for 250 BB, obviously not.

The villain's big raise seems very polarizing. Given my image and the way the hand has played out, my hand looks like an overpair. Therefore, I believe one of two things is happening here.

1. Either the villain has 99, 77, 33, T8s, 97s and is looking to get stacks in now. (Is this MUBsy thinking?)

Or...

2. The villain is trying to blow me off my overpair with some sort of flush-draw, straight draw bluff. (Do people do this at 1/2?)

I know the Baluga Whale Theorem states that one should strongly reconsider the strength of one pair-hands when facing a raise on the turn.

What should I do here? Folding seems a little tight, calling OOP seems awful, and raising seems suicidal.

Did I make a mistake prior to this decision? Should I have checked the turn to keep the pot small? Should I have bet bigger on the turn? Thanks for the help
Grunching,

Def a tough spot. OOP against aggressive players, I probably c/c here for pot control. My desire to keep the pot small is greater than my desire to charge draws and protect my equity.

As played, I fold as there are just too many combos that beat you given that villain was in late position.
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Old 08-19-2016, 03:57 PM   #6
wj94
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Re: QQ facing big turn raise

I feel like this is a spot where a good player knows a TAG-ish player that opened pre with no limpers is only double barreling an overpair and giving up with overs or checking draws that totally whiffed the turn. If you aren't the type of player that has medium PP's and SC's in your PFR range, it's pretty easy for a solid V to play against you in position. So when described TAG-ish player double barrels and V raises, they are saying "hey bro, I can beat your overpair, but I sure hope you stack off with it" because people don't fold overpairs, especially on drawy boards. Chances are they aren't pulling off a sick "I know you're gonna fold that overpair" play because it so rarely happens compared to the times they just have you beat.

I really don't like the turn sizing because it puts you in this spot and you're going to have a lot of awkward river situations being OOP. Turn bet $80 and fold if they raise. Then bet most rivers if called. It's much tougher for someone to bluff raise $220+ than $170, especially when the PFR shows a ton of strength. You also keep bluffs in your range with a big bet while your sizing looks just like what it is. If I thought V was weak I'd just bet small on all three streets.

As played as much as it sucks you should probably fold because you're going to face another river bet fairly often and are OOP so V gets to determine sizing.
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Old 08-19-2016, 04:35 PM   #7
keybattle
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Re: QQ facing big turn raise

I would say if your range is totally obvious against a good tag on your left, you should do

1. Add SCs, small pocket pairs into your MP raising range so that on the turn you are less likely to be capped at one pair

2. change seat or pick up your chips and change table. This table is not gonna be good for you

Back to this hand, I do not agree with other people saying 10 is not enough for opening. It s 5x open from MP. You guys now know he got three callers and then criticized that it was not enough. You did not know how many people would call you behind when you open. Unless I know the table is full of loose-passive preflop fish, I would go for large sizing. Maybe 10 is usaully the right amount on that table to keep 1 or 2 players in but it just happened to be 3 other people have good hands.


Checking the turn is almost crime here. Just because you don't like a raise then you check? There are tons of weak hands are gonna call you to pay you off. Being afraid of raising is a good way of losing values.

However, I do think you can bet bigger both flop and turn.

AP, if you dont want to end up in a guessing game, just fold the turn.

If I'm in V's shoes and when I see hero having a condensed range on overpair, I would raise turn all day with 2p+ and combo draw.

Work on your preflop range, make it more balanced and make you less capped in situations like this
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Old 08-19-2016, 04:57 PM   #8
GEORGE_LUZ
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Re: QQ facing big turn raise

Quote:
Originally Posted by keybattle View Post
I would say if your range is totally obvious against a good tag on your left, you should do

1. Add SCs, small pocket pairs into your MP raising range so that on the turn you are less likely to be capped at one pair

2. change seat or pick up your chips and change table. This table is not gonna be good for you

Back to this hand, I do not agree with other people saying 10 is not enough for opening. It s 5x open from MP. You guys now know he got three callers and then criticized that it was not enough. You did not know how many people would call you behind when you open. Unless I know the table is full of loose-passive preflop fish, I would go for large sizing. Maybe 10 is usaully the right amount on that table to keep 1 or 2 players in but it just happened to be 3 other people have good hands.


Checking the turn is almost crime here. Just because you don't like a raise then you check? There are tons of weak hands are gonna call you to pay you off. Being afraid of raising is a good way of losing values.

However, I do think you can bet bigger both flop and turn.

AP, if you dont want to end up in a guessing game, just fold the turn.

If I'm in V's shoes and when I see hero having a condensed range on overpair, I would raise turn all day with 2p+ and combo draw.

Work on your preflop range, make it more balanced and make you less capped in situations like this
My default opening range from MP is usually 22+, AJo+, KQo+, and suited broadways . But due to murderers' row on my left I decided to tighten it up a little. Against tougher opponents, is it better to have a stronger opening range or more balanced opening range?

FWIW, I did leave the table a few hands later as I didn't like my seat.
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Old 08-19-2016, 05:13 PM   #9
keybattle
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Re: QQ facing big turn raise

Quote:
Originally Posted by GEORGE_LUZ View Post
My default opening range from MP is usually 22+, AJo+, KQo+, and suited broadways . But due to murderers' row on my left I decided to tighten it up a little. Against tougher opponents, is it better to have a stronger opening range or more balanced opening range?



FWIW, I did leave the table a few hands later as I didn't like my seat.

I would always prefer a balanced range unless there is a specific reason for me to deviate. It is good for you to be less predictable against good players. You know the common sense that higher stakes players are more balanced. And this scenario exactly explains why.

In your case, I would quickly request table change as I don't like the seating


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Old 08-20-2016, 02:30 PM   #10
GEORGE_LUZ
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Re: QQ facing big turn raise

So it seems like the consensus was to either check/call the turn for pot control, or to bet/fold bigger. My half pot turn bet was in hindsight non-committal and led to the difficult spot I was in against the villain.

Thanks for the help!
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