If you find interpreting "FPS" and "size up the turn" to be difficult, maybe poker isn't for you.

You're getting a "juvenile attitude" because you so emphatically stated the following. Why bother posting the hand?

Sorry. I guess other people intuitively know what size you’re suggesting when you suggest ‘size up on the turn’. You actually didn’t suggest a size and still haven’t. When I used 2/3rd as an example you just responded with “I didn’t say 2/3rd did I?”.
Well no, you didn’t. You didn’t suggest anything specific, and since I actually checked the turn I can’t even use my own bet size as a reference for your comment.
Similarly, simply posting “FPS” and nothing else is just more vague and unhelpful criticism. I don’t have a problem taking criticism, or I wouldn’t post some of the hands I do.

This is what I responded to your ‘FPS’ comment.
Am I looking for a pat on the back here or asking for your actual input?
If you would post how you think the hand actually should have played out I’d be curious to know. But otherwise, you’re not helping, which is the supposed point of this forum.

I would ignore JohnnyBuz if I were you. I would specifically ignore his "Size up the turn and dont fold to a raise" advise. To this day he cant seem to figure out why his variance is thru the roof. He just thinks variance has to be thru the roof to be a good player, but ....hint hint...bet large/call turn raise is a big reason.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. People play different styles and they can post whatever they want here, but if you dont figure out who to listen to and who to ignore, your game will get significantly worse for no reason.

Mike he can also learn how to not butcher QQ by observing your latest thread.

Given you don’t understand combos, math, or apparently in this case board texture and context, I wouldn’t expect you to understand why bet/call is good on a board such as this at this stack depth.

If you bet large on this turn and still get raised the guy is going to have you demolished almost every time.

Sure maybe he has QsTs once in a blue moon, but he will have a set or something like 9h7h the vast majority of the time. You're never going to be good at this stack depth.

With a much deeper stack maybe the guy gets frisky with a pair and draw trying to make you laydown AQ or an overpair, but people dont fold overpairs very often for less than 100BBs, which is why calling a raise after a large turn bet is suicide.

You mean the one where I won $500 with QQ vs A9s? Yeah, totally butchered. If I 3 bet preflop I win $15.

We dont have to play hands the same way every time to be good players. Sometimes mixing it up works and sometimes it doesnt. Overall, Im confidant that I win more by mixing up my play than playing ABC. Feel free to disagree.

And how much do you win when you’re tilted ass back raise 4bets and villain ships? Math is not my strong suit but is $1000 more than $500?

It's FPS because you have no reason to deviate from a slam dunk b/b/b line which is higher EV than your move. Outside of the sexiness of b/b/b in and of itself, if you don't b/b this you're going to have too many bluffs in your triple/double barrel range which good V will exploit (which he did btw, by folding). Think about how you would play if you were V with QTs and faced 3 barrels in a row - pretty tough and you probably pay him off a good amount.

Here IS a reason to deviate from b/b: villain is too aggressive, overbluffs but also knows when to fold when bet into. Then we can resort to FPS and CRAI on the turn. Doesn't seem like this villain is the case btw, based on your *initial* description (which maybe we should re-evaluate)

Hes gonna 5 bet jam A9s? LOL

This isnt even my thread. The least you can do is confine your anti-MikeStarr nonsense to my own threads.

...good times though, amirite?

Well he x/r the river with it didn’t he? I forgot you play in Soft Florida where 3bet ranges are KK+ and nobody semi-bluffs which is why your mind can’t comprehend a bet/call line on the turn in this thread.

You’re right it’s not your thread Mike, yet you were the one that called me out.

I don’t care about the thread/hand that much.
I have no ownership of this space in cyber land.
But nothing is really being said anymore.

Don't like it. That 2nd reference hand is pretty bad by the way, sizewise.

Anyway, I would just b/b/b or b/b/c depending on run-out etc. Flop can be somewhat bigger than 40, but I like 40 fine 3ways. Then on this turn I'd size up to at least ~130. Lots of combodraws that will have a hard time folding and may even feel compelled to gii, so I wouldn't b/f here.

I guess I'm wrong since he apparently had some sort of combodraw, but I would only expect very strong hands to bet the turn here if I check, so I would not be jumping at the opportunity to get my whole stack in vs the range I'd give him. I'd expect most combodraws (and even weaker Q's sometimes) to check behind, so I think it's much better to charge those hands with a hefty bet.

FPS seems like a good assessment here indeed.

Cool. Thanks for the input Homey D.
Usually I would just go with a b/b/eval river line here, but I mixed it up this time.

What do think would of been better for turn size in my 2nd reference hand?
Or do you think I should have just raised his flop bet?
I don’t think my river bet is that far off AP.

What worse hand calls you? KQ? Doubt it.


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Not sure what I like less, hugely overplaying a TP hand or the pent up sexual tension between Johnny & mike ITT.

Ive made plays like this and seen guys fold face up with hands that I beat and hands that had me dominated. I dont think you guys understand the value of being not only a good player but a "dangerous" player.

I know guys who arent very good and are probably losing players, but they are very dangerous to play against. Id rather them not even be at my table because you never know what they will do. You never know when its safe to bet against them. They take you out of your comfort zone and make you play big pots with marginal hands.

A good solid technical player who can also do this and make people very uncomfortable can dominate the games.

What you call FPS or overplaying a hand, I call being very dangerous, unpredictable and unreadable.

For example: As I said earlier, if I bet the turn pretty big and get raised, Im folding. Why? Because there just arent very many "dangerous" players who will jam the turn with no apparent FE when they dont have a monster hand. The "dangerous" players who will make crazy plays like jamming the turn with something like 75s or 87s normally do it way too often so nobody folds to them. But a solid player who throws a play like that in every now and then is very dangerous and people are more likely to check to them when they shouldnt. So check raising the turn here with AQ occasionally against guys who bet too much when checked to will make you a very hard player to read and a very dangerous player.

The thing that I find interesting about this hand is that people are talking like I was trying to punt off my stack here. But I was only at 95bb to start the hand and flipped tptk.
In a certain way x/jam turn here is almost a safer line than the b/b turn big/b river line that is the common consensus here.
If he has set here and I bet turn big/call raise, I lose my stack.
If I bet turn big and he calls, then a heart/river hits, or any of the OESD cards I’m guessing on the river and I hate folding at that point.
The x/jam play OTT is pretty aggressive, but about half the deck is bad for me OTR.

Anyway, if I was wrong and lose 95bb? It happens. I reload.

I’m pretty over this situation though. There’s not much more to really discuss at this point.

This thread veered off on an unfortunate vector. We could have had a very interesting and educational conversation on Aggression Factor - its benefits, limitations, use cases etc.

Though I was in the consensus that you overplayed this hand, I've gleaned something very valuable from it, so thanks for posting and being the "lightning rod".

I hope at some point maybe there can be a COTM on AF. Maybe Garick or Vernon will see this thread and sponsor this COTM. It's a very complex, game-theoretical topic and I was hoping to learn more about it from the top players ITF.

You still just assume villain will bet, but what if he checks the turn behind and realises his equity for free?

Something I’ve learned at this point in playing is that my intuition for bluffs/when people will bet/etc. is a strength of my game. I’m correct at a high percentage. I have areas that need improvement, but that is something I excel at. Given my recent history with V and his ownage of me I felt sure he would bet any hand that was worth calling the flop on.
In the case that I was wrong and he checks behind, I go for my second street of value (which was all I suspected I’d get anyways) on brick cards, and I probably x/call on all cards that aren’t the 7-8 worst cards that could come.

And if you’d give me your feedback on the 2nd reference hand I’m actually curious. I’m not just being a smartass at all.

With respect to that hand, I'd just bet the turn a lot bigger, I'd say 120 minimum. Then (and as played) bet bigger on the river as well, don't know stacksizes obv, but no less than half pot. I'm not putting him on a flush anyway with this line.

Right. Yeah, my turn bet is too small there. I agree. I think we were both around 180 bb’s in that hand. I had him very tightly ranged on mostly top premiums that hand, so I should definitely size up turn for the majority of times that I am ahead.
That was a sick river though, and I figured that I only get value from mostly AK, which was why I went smaller there. Then I leveled myself into thinking he maybe x/r’d cuz I went small. He went small because he knows I’m capable of throwing away a good hand there. I’m sure he knows I have set by river.