Hi everybody,

Took a shot at 2/5 yesterday for the first time in a while. Thought this hand was somewhat interesting. V1 is a bluffy, drinking, young white kid, who has already rebought and is someone I'm really really interested in getting into a pot with this much hand against. V2 made one big bluff that got called, but overall seems competent, bought in for a stack of black, so I suspect he's probably relatively regular?

V1 has about $550 to start the hand, V2 has around $1000, and I cover.

Preflop: V1 limps UTG+1, I limp with QJ in UTG+2, V2 limps, two other limps along the way, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop ($30) [Q J 2] -- checks to me, I bet $25, V2 calls, folds to V1 who makes it $85. What's my plan from here?

My main issue is the fact that the competent player is behind me and I'm pretty sure if we GII 3-ways right now I'm not actually that large of an equity favorite -- obviously possible one of them has a set, but more critically it's almost certain at least one of them has diamonds. The other problem is I don't think we can just GII right now -- if I make it $225 or whatever to reopen the betting, V2 flats, and V1 shoves, do I really just crank in the rest? Does my bet/3-bet in a limped pot look so strong that I only get action from combo draws and sets?

Overall I think I want to see a turn card and GII then on non- non-As, but I also am a bit worried about calling and having V2 reopen the action.

Thoughts?

You need to iso pre. Other problems snowball from there. OTF, we essentially have 2nd nuts. JJ+ raises pre. I'd probably just flat to keep in all of the bluffs. We could maybe click back to $170 since a FD would have a hard time letting go for the price. I'm not worried about V2 in the slightest. It'd be odd for him to just flat bottom set here, and as already stated that's the only hand we're behind.

Bottom line, raise pre.

Iso to 5x preflop. You can iso here with about the same range you would open raise from EP.


AP, i agree with your last statement about waiting for a safe turn since you're likely flipping with V's range here if you GII OTF. Also, flatting reduces variance which is a bonus since you're just getting back into 2/5.

V1 is spewey so I’m 3-betting flop. I don’t like flatting because I’m pricing in V2 to continue with all his draws which are hard to identify (such as T9 when an 8 peels).

If I make it $225 and V2 jams 1k behind, I’m probably calling because it is rare for him to have me beat. There is 1 combination of QQ and 1 of JJ left and I don’t think it would be in the range of V2 because he overlimped pre with 2 limpers initially. So we are behind a set of 2’s here that has 3 combinations.

Most likely, V1 has TPGK or a combo draw or a weirdly played AA/KK and a set of deuces. The majority of his range we crush. If he is spewey, then we will get it in for stacks good vs a mediocre range.


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Relatively small x/r sizing with a caller. Given the hand configuration, almost 100% of the time V2 is raising bottom set on this texture. Top of his range could be pr/draw combos.

I'd try to iso V1 (110 bb eff) and go to $190, get rest in on safe turns.

Its already been said but dont limp behind, even EPvEP. You said you want to get into hands with that player. Other regs probably want that too. By limping behind you invite them to join in the hand and take your chance to play out your edge vs the fish bc you have to not only fight him but everybody else and you dont want that. Dont give regulars good pot odds. Isolate your target and give yourself the opportunity to outplay him.

Where's GG to defend my limp behind?!

I really do think this limp behind is fine here -- I'd rather get to play the pot at all against a single raise with a string of callers, vs. get blown out by a sizable three bet. This game has had plenty of three bets, and plenty of cold calls. I believe the only thing that changes if I try to iso is that we're playing for $150 six ways instead of $30, which obviously works out for me here, I flopped top two, but I think in general I'd rather play a less leveraged spot with what to me is a pretty meh holding.

For instance, if I c-bet around $100 having flopped top two here, pretty sure the same thing would've happened but with V2 calling that amount, and V1 getting to check/ship.

I didn't clarify regarding the rest of the lineup because they didn't end up playing the hand past the preflop action, but two of those limps I was happy to have in the pot and would've been happy to have them call the $25. The people I thought were competent at the table were V2, the folded UTG player, the folded MP2 player, and the SB who completed. So my preflop result is that I'm playing a six way pot with three spots and two regs. I'm fine with that. The other two spots weren't nearly as action as the kid, but when I was walking up to the desk and realized they were getting on the 2/5 list it cemented my decision to get in the game.

Sure would be easier if you didn't limp preflop, because now you're extremely deep with a not nutted hand and feel you can't put in your stack.

I guess you're worried about exactly 22? JJ and QQ should at least be opening the pot. They're extremely unlikely hands.

Why do you say you're "pretty sure" about this when it's quickly and easily verified with PPT? Say, for example, we're up against the NFD and top pair:

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

7,224 trials (Exhaustive)

board: QJ2

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
QcJc	55.97%	4,023	40
Ad6d	33.78%	2,440	0
KQ	10.26%	721	40

Or even the worst case scenario, the NFD + gutshot combo draw:

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

7,224 trials (Exhaustive)

board: QJ2

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
QcJc	55.88%	4,017	40
AdTd	40.59%	2,932	0
KQ	3.53%	235	40

It's also fine for us if they both have diamonds, because they block each other's outs:

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

903 trials (Exhaustive)

board: QJ2

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
QcJc	54.15%	489	0
AdTd	36.21%	327	0
Kd9d	9.63%	87	0

Do this math and you won't have to guess about this stuff.

Oh I've done a ton of similar math. FWIW, the worst case non-222 scenario is T9dd for one and QJ for the other -- we each have 24% via chops, T9 has 52%. Obviously it's a horrific scenario, but there's 4 remaining combos of QJ out there and I think a competent V2 may occasionally flat them and wait for a safe turn to bomb (because that's precisely the line I'm advocating). Also, another scenario you're missing where we're actually below 50% is T9 no diamonds for one and Ax diamonds for the other...in fact, if one has AJ diamonds and the other has T9, we're no longer the equity favorite.

But yeah, the reason I'm not totally sure is that I'd have to come up with a range for each of them and toss it into stove, not into a twodimes or PPT, and the range clearly includes 222. The other thing is I can't just stuff in what's remaining, we're too deep for that, and it'll create a very bad adverse action problem (I'll find they have the set when they call and otherwise they'll fold).

Here's the point you missed from my OP: add a 5c turn card to each of the scenarios and see how my equity jumps (about 20% in each of the scenarios you've listed). If you want to flip slightly weighted coins for $1K, then that's your prerogative (if I end up heads up and all-in vs. KTdd we're 50:50). I'd rather wait til I'm a 4:1 favorite and then get out the shovel. The kid's action enough that he's not going to care/notice that his draw just lost half its equity.

Anyways the math doesn't solve this issue at all, and trying to avoid the issue by creating a smaller SPR ratio doesn't magically fix it (we're still 6:1 SPR in a very multiway pot if we'd raised and gotten five callers -- I'm still not in pure shovel mode, particularly because JJ/QQ become possibilities for flats, even if they weren't for limps).

Deep poker is not just about nutting up and stacking off. It's about making good decisions in ambiguous situations. What do you do in the actual spot at hand and why?

Limp/calling and playing this hand OOP will challenge getting a fair return. Since you are taking a shot at a table with aggressive play, you would be likely better off playing tighter from early position.

If you're not isoing here, there's a good chance your range is too tight, you're missing value in other spots, and you're making yourself open to exploits not just from better players but also from the bad LAGs. You're basically playing fit/fold. If you say people are 3b frequently, that's fine. It means they're wide. Given stack depth we can certainly take a flop with the majority of our isoing range here which should look something like: AA-77,AKo-AQo,AKs-ATs,A5s-A4s,KQs-KTs,QJs-QTs,JTs-J9s,T9s,98s,

By putting in the raise first, we at least give others a chance to fold and increase our odds of getting some bluffs in later. If we do end up getting called by a wide field, fine. We're still ahead of them.

I think I would add AJ/KQ off and take out basically the last several hands you have there and otherwise we're on the same page. I might limp 22-99 or so here. I feel like with the lesser hands in this range -- basically all the SCs, the lesser pocket pairs, and the suited aces -- I'm okay with letting other people in because they'll pad my odds multiway and I'm trying to nut up with those hands anyways. I'm not really looking to get bluffs in here, I'm trying to make a hand and let the kid to my right go berserk.

Well what do you do then if after you 2 more ppl limp, then 1 guy isolates for 10x, you putting in 10BB OOP with QJs against iso range? Just take the agression preflop there