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Old 02-17-2019, 02:13 PM   #1
MarshMan114
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Protect Nut Straight?

At a very active 2/5 table with lots of 3 bets; a few LAGs; and a super calling station to boot. I always play tight and haven't really shown down much of anything. I 4bet twice with AK and won preflop.

I ($1000, I think effective stacks are $700) open with 67 in early position, 2 calls from late position (one guy is solid/tight and other guy is a good LAG who can call with just about any 2) and BB calls (more on the tight side).

(An aside. I don't really like to open with SC. I really have a tight preflop range and even tighter open range. I play enough hours in a decently small player pool that I'm starting to consider I'm easy to put on a range and at an active table miss out on medium pots where I fold the bottom of my range to decent aggression. For example; I open with J10ss in MP and get 2 callers from LAGs, one behind me and one in SB. Flop 10 high, check, check, guy bets pot. SB calls. I fold. Turn blank under 10. SB checks and guy bets again, SB calls. River another blank under 10. Check, check, SB shows 910o ftw. All that to say I'm trying to increase aggression at the bottom of my range against LAGs.)

Flop ($80) 345
BB donks $45.

Hero?

Spoiler:
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Old 02-17-2019, 02:50 PM   #2
snowman
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

IF YOU COULDN'T EVEN FLAT HERE AFTER OPENING with 6-7 up front
then just fold them pre
what were you hoping to flop
666 777

scared money doesn't make money
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Old 02-17-2019, 03:20 PM   #3
MarshMan114
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman View Post
IF YOU COULDN'T EVEN FLAT HERE AFTER OPENING with 6-7 up front
then just fold them pre
what were you hoping to flop
666 777

scared money doesn't make money
Aight. Carry on everyone.
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Old 02-17-2019, 03:23 PM   #4
QuadJ
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Raising isn't terrible but flatting is the normal play here. You would like to get some more money in the pot before making a play and the range for all villain's will be fairly weak.

The real problem I see here is raising flop for protection. You don't need protection on this flop. Two pair is unlikely and there are going to be few draws and you block them all. If your raising on this board it's because you expect to get called some of the time and you want to build up the pot now.
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Old 02-17-2019, 03:25 PM   #5
TheSamasaurus
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Haven't read the hand but how are you folding JT on a T high board mydude
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Old 02-17-2019, 03:29 PM   #6
TheSamasaurus
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Seems like a fine raise you just also need to bluff here
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Old 02-17-2019, 03:50 PM   #7
CallMeVernon
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman View Post
IF YOU COULDN'T EVEN RAISE HERE AFTER OPENING with 6-7 up front
then just fold them pre
FYP.

This is an auto-raise. You are raising for value against combo draws that you have in terrible shape as well as charging any possible higher flush draws. You also have A2 drawing dead. And on top of all that, if you get all in against another nut straight, you are freerolling.

Pile the money in here.
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Old 02-17-2019, 05:23 PM   #8
snowman
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeVernon View Post
FYP.

This is an auto-raise. You are raising for value against combo draws that you have in terrible shape as well as charging any possible higher flush draws. You also have A2 drawing dead. And on top of all that, if you get all in against another nut straight, you are freerolling.

Pile the money in here.
this is not auto raise

OP states V would never put him on a hand this strong
call and let V donk turn as well.

OP states V on tight side why chase him away by playing back at him
give him some line and let him swallow the hook
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Old 02-17-2019, 05:31 PM   #9
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

4 ways this is an auto raise unless yo hate $$$.

And lol at opening 76s from up front against lags and super calling stations (which makes it even more important to raise now).
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Old 02-17-2019, 05:50 PM   #10
MarshMan114
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSamasaurus View Post
Haven't read the hand but how are you folding JT on a T high board mydude
For some sick reason I learn faster by having strangers berate me. Won’t happen again, sir.
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Old 02-17-2019, 05:58 PM   #11
MarshMan114
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

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Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
4 ways this is an auto raise unless yo hate $$$.

And lol at opening 76s from up front against lags and super calling stations (which makes it even more important to raise now).
So play more into my tightness and not less? Or just in general that’s a bad hand/position/table combo?
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:51 PM   #12
warlockjd
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Raise flop to $225
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:51 PM   #13
snowman
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
4 ways this is an auto raise unless yo hate $$$.

And lol at opening 76s from up front against lags and super calling stations (which makes it even more important to raise now).
I get it ; your out of your comfort zone so you want to chase away everyone.
as someone who routinely open raises UTG with 56 67 78 suited and folds rags like AQ AJ KQ

when you get a dream flop like this peel one off when donked into

if you opened with AA and the flop came AA5 and BB donked into you would you raise ?
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:53 PM   #14
adummmmm
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

According to your opponents You really should not have raising range here, ie are you really raising overpairs here ? That is precisely why I like a raise , bump it to $125-$150 and polarize the **** out of your hand , active lags will still be coming along with all draws and may even make plays at the pot on the turn , when I say polarize I mean rep exactly that overpairs , they can't put you on your hand and will likely get paid or played back at it, obviously if clubs come you will have to remain a bit cautious , but other than that build the pot in general,
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:08 PM   #15
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeVernon View Post
FYP.

This is an auto-raise. You are raising for value against combo draws that you have in terrible shape as well as charging any possible higher flush draws. You also have A2 drawing dead. And on top of all that, if you get all in against another nut straight, you are freerolling.

Pile the money in here.
I don't think it is an auto-raise. I play against lineups where the combination of their tightness and my table image means that if I raise, sometimes they fold A2. I've spent years crafting an image of being tighter than I actually am in a place where regs are passive and default to pot-control lines with their good non-nut hands.

If you have LAGs behind you in this spot, it often makes sense to just flat if you can induce a squeeze because they put you on a hand like JJ and don't think the BB has a strong donking range. OP said he had only 1 LAG behind him, so that makes me more inclined to consider raising, but the more players who might squeeze behind you, the more you can consider playing this in a way that represents a scared overpair or a flush draw.
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:09 PM   #16
BDHarrison
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adummmmm View Post
According to your opponents You really should not have raising range here, ie are you really raising overpairs here ? That is precisely why I like a raise , bump it to $125-$150 and polarize the **** out of your hand , active lags will still be coming along with all draws and may even make plays at the pot on the turn , when I say polarize I mean rep exactly that overpairs , they can't put you on your hand and will likely get paid or played back at it, obviously if clubs come you will have to remain a bit cautious , but other than that build the pot in general,
Would you play an overpair like that? Because that feels like a bad way to play a hand like KK on this flop.
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:17 PM   #17
tmo1120
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ View Post

The real problem I see here is raising flop for protection. You don't need protection on this flop.
+1
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:47 PM   #18
SwolyswoND
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

This flop is 100% a raise, we do realize we have the nuts and people will call with many many worse hands right? I think we scientifically term this a raise for value?

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman View Post
if you opened with AA and the flop came AA5 and BB donked into you would you raise ?
Not remotely the same situation, and if you can't see why then I don't think anyone here can help you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
Would you play an overpair like that? Because that feels like a bad way to play a hand like KK on this flop.
We 2+2 posters know that raising red KK would be bad on this flop, but a vast majority of the player pool would raise red KK in Hero's spot, so to V, overpairs are in our perceived range. In fact, they likely put us on that more than they do Hero's actual holding.
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:27 AM   #19
snowman
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwolyswoND View Post
This flop is 100% a raise, we do realize we have the nuts and people will call with many many worse hands right? I think we scientifically term this a raise for value?



Not remotely the same situation, and if you can't see why then I don't think anyone here can help you.



We 2+2 posters know that raising red KK would be bad on this flop, but a vast majority of the player pool would raise red KK in Hero's spot, so to V, overpairs are in our perceived range. In fact, they likely put us on that more than they do Hero's actual holding.
you are failing to read OP desc of himself and of V's
in a vacuum is a lot different then playing the desc of V's here
if YOU can't understand that then WE can't help you
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:55 AM   #20
SwolyswoND
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

I read all descriptions. It's still a raise 115% of the time. Your posts typically aren't worth the time or effort to explain, but I'll try.

When we hold AA on AA5 and get donked into, 1) we cannot lose (save for some random gutshot straight flush draw); 2) there are no action killing turn cards; 3) not only do we block every single hand V could have that we would want to call our raise (Ax), but it's actually impossible for V to have Ax.

When we have 7c6c on 5c4c3x and we get donked into with two players left behind us to act, 1) we actually can lose the pot; 2) there are a ton of action killing turn cards (board pairing, 6x, 2x, Ax, 7x, clubs); 3) while we block some of the hands we want Vs to call a raise with, there are plenty of holdings out there that will continue. Straights, sets, two pairs (our hand looks like AA/KK given our image), flush draws.

I can't believe I actually went through that effort for one of snowman's low effort posts, but there. A little poker 101.
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:04 AM   #21
Lapidator
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshMan114 View Post
So play more into my tightness and not less? Or just in general that’s a bad hand/position/table combo?
Didn't you say there were lots of 3b in this game?

What's your plan for when you get 3b?

What's your plan against the LAGs and calling stations when you miss the flop >85% of the time and have 7-high?
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:08 AM   #22
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowman View Post
I get it ; your out of your comfort zone so you want to chase away everyone.
as someone who routinely open raises UTG with 56 67 78 suited and folds rags like AQ AJ KQ

when you get a dream flop like this peel one off when donked into

if you opened with AA and the flop came AA5 and BB donked into you would you raise ?
Yup, constantly losing $$$ is out of my comfort zone. I try to avoid it if at all possible.
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:35 AM   #23
Garick
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

OP, stop posting results until after discussion dies down, even in spoilers. I feel like I've told you this multiple times.

Edit: looking back at your previous threads, I have told you this multiple times. I'm going to start infracting for it in the future, as you really should know better by now.
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Old 02-18-2019, 11:32 AM   #24
CRAIerrday
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeVernon View Post
This is an auto-raise. You are raising for value against combo draws that you have in terrible shape as well as charging any possible higher flush draws. You also have A2 drawing dead. And on top of all that, if you get all in against another nut straight, you are freerolling.

Pile the money in here.
This.

In the JT hand I don't understand why you would you check. Bet flop, as played folding should not be an option.
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Old 02-18-2019, 12:15 PM   #25
CallMeVernon
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Re: Protect Nut Straight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
the more players who might squeeze behind you, the more you can consider playing this in a way that represents a scared overpair or a flush draw.
While this is true in general, I do not think it applies here. Even if both of these guys were LAGs behind me, I would still raise. In order for a LAG to try a bluff-raise, not only do they have to put us on a weak hand, they also have to worry about the guy who led out--a tight player in the BB, leading into 3 people. I feel like that fact would make anyone who continues behind me more likely to call than raise, if they have a hand worth continuing with.

I don't hate the overall idea that in situations like this we should have some range that slowplays the flop, but the nut straight with a straight flush redraw should absolutely 100% NOT be in that range.
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