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Proper move on the turn? 1/2NL Proper move on the turn? 1/2NL

08-12-2010 , 03:41 PM
Hero UTG ~ 200
Villian 1 UTG+1 ~250 (loose passive player who is scared to lose money, def. not bankrolled for this game)
Villian 2 Button ~150 (he's a loose aggressive donkey, I've seen this guy lose ****loads of money all over the place)

I make a 14 dollar raise (pretty std for the table) with AJss. The two players mentioned call. Flop comes Ks5sJh. I bet out 40. UTG+1 calls fairly quickly. Button folds. Turn is a 10d. With effective stacks, what is the best play here?

1) Bet 120/shove, call anything he does.
2) Check call
3) Check fold if he shoves
4) Check call if he shoves

Pretty standard hand, but just curious what to do.

I ended up checking and he shoved. I folded even though it was so tough to put him on anything better than 2 pair. He showed 5-5 after basically telling me to fold. The dealer showed the river and it was a spade. I'm pretty sure I made a bad fold.
Proper move on the turn? 1/2NL Quote
08-12-2010 , 03:46 PM
Of course it was a bad fold, you would have won!
Proper move on the turn? 1/2NL Quote
08-12-2010 , 03:50 PM
Do the math it's pretty simple. Equity vs Outs.
Proper move on the turn? 1/2NL Quote
08-12-2010 , 04:20 PM
$14 x 3 = $42 pre-flop
$40 x2 = $122 in the pot on the turn

Villain shoves(you have $146 left) effective pot $248

you have 8 clean spades(T no good) and 3 queens to the nuts.

You are a 3/1 dog with one street left against a set.

You are getting less than 2/1 pot odds.

Good fold

Last edited by Sebastes Pinneger; 08-12-2010 at 04:25 PM.
Proper move on the turn? 1/2NL Quote
08-12-2010 , 06:57 PM
With the UTG's table image and the quick flop call, I would assume that he had flopped a solid but vulnerable hand. If he didn't raise my flop bet, I am going to assume that he likely isn't 100% stoked about his hand, if he's not willing to raise to protect it at this point.

I like to bully scared money, I probably would have tried to bet him out of the pot with a $120 turn bet, knowing that I have outs if he calls.

But of course, this means I would have been wrong, getting it in behind (that's what he said?), and just gotten lucky if he ended up calling.

But that would have probably gotten him all out of sorts and would have resulted in him donking off the rest of his stack, and that just sounds like fun.

To sum up, I choose option #1, knowing how the cards come out, because it sounds like the most fun.

But yeah, if you check and he shoves, I think it's a pretty easy fold.
Proper move on the turn? 1/2NL Quote
08-12-2010 , 07:28 PM
A and J should be outs also a decent amount of times.
Proper move on the turn? 1/2NL Quote
08-12-2010 , 10:34 PM
The OP is about the turn play, but I have a couple other comments.
- Why open the pot to 14? I know 12 - 15 is the standard raise at a lot of tables, but that doesn't mean it makes sense. Opening to 8 or 10 gives you a lot more room to operate after the flop (assuming you want that, if not then bigger raises are the right play). Lets see how this hand could have played out until the turn: Open to 10 and get 2 calls, pot = 30. Flop bet of 20 and 1 call, pot = 70 (flop bet size to be addressed next). On the turn you check. What bet makes sense for V1 when protecting a set? A shove is a gross over bet. Something like 55 - 70 makes sense. This would give you 2:1 on a call if he bets 70. You don't know what he has but know you have 11 nut outs and a J or Ace is good some of the time and you have the best hand some of the time. Lets call it 14 outs, meaning you need 2.4:1 to call. With implied odds I think this is a call and you still have 100 left. Now you can see the river.
- Why bet the pot on the flop? Bets this big are rarely +EV unless you are value betting. You got a nice flop, but you are seldom ahead if someone calls a pot sized bet. Betting 1/2 - 3/4 of the pot does the same thing as a pot sized bet (gets hands that hit nothing to fold), except now you get called by hands that you have crushed as well (other spade draws, someone fishing with 2nd pair, floating the flop with TT-66).
- As played you have to fold against a passive V as they only bet like that when they have the goods.
Proper move on the turn? 1/2NL Quote
08-12-2010 , 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastes Pinneger
$14 x 3 = $42 pre-flop
$40 x2 = $122 in the pot on the turn

Villain shoves(you have $146 left) effective pot $248

you have 8 clean spades(T no good) and 3 queens to the nuts.

You are a 3/1 dog with one street left against a set.

You are getting less than 2/1 pot odds.

Good fold
haha and you can put an opponent on a set every time? bad fold... shove turn
Proper move on the turn? 1/2NL Quote
08-13-2010 , 01:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyDurr
haha and you can put an opponent on a set every time? bad fold... shove turn
No we cant put the Villain on a set every time. We have to include the straight as well.

The straight is even worse for our hand, eliminating the non-spade Q's as nut outs.
Proper move on the turn? 1/2NL Quote
08-13-2010 , 01:02 AM
Villian is the one that played it bad, nh.

Although your flop bet is huge, bets of this size are almost always indicitive of a huge hand here, monster draw, AK, AA you´re not really allowing your opponent to make a mistake here by calling with worse.
Proper move on the turn? 1/2NL Quote

      
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