If they suck than I'll see a flop in position getting over 5-1.

The raise pre is terrible, but if I am in that spot I'm never folding pre here.

I do not know what OMC means but I am assuming that means he is extra nitty? And forgive me but I also am not 100% sure but SPR is stack to pot ratio, right?

But you are right I am calling ATC that have flush possibilities that I raise to 35 and am getting those odds pre flop against two fish.

think his range is insanely strong and probably is limited to KK/AA. Flop check is great, close between fold and call on turn. would really rather have more chips in back to call

that being said, pre is lighting money on fire imo, questionable raise and bad sizing

You have been called in multiple places when making solid raises from the blinds. In this hand I like a limp or a small raise preflop since they may all be calling.

As played facing the 3-bet from a nitty/careful villain is no fun. First time here I fold and pay close attention to the hand. As played it is very tempting to bet the flop. Since villain is nitty you should be able to bet a reasonable amount and find out much of what you need to know - if you think he will fold QQ/JJ type hands. Checking the flop is obviously fine and I like folding the turn.

I like the raise pre over two limpers, but once you're 3bet from the blinds, and min to boot, this probably a fold.

As played when it checks to you on the flop I would bet, say 1/3 to,1/2 pot. If the PFR has any of the board and calls I'm done. When it checks through and now he fires the turn, you are smoked, with only hopes of catching a spade.

thanks for the replies and sorry for abandoning my thread, had some stuff to do during the day and now I'm home....

I'll post my thoughts now.... btw this is my first ever strat post that is longer than like 3 words so bare with me here, I'm trying to see what it's like to become one of the 2p2 tl;dr specialists

before I go any further I'll post the spoiler to the results.... I folded

pretty is pretty standard for me... its higher variance than limping behind but I think ATss is strong enough, it's the bottom of my range but I'm making it 35 over 3 limpers every time.... my preflop sizing is 4x+ 1 per limper with whatever I decide to raise with... so I'm standing by making it 35 over the 3 limps...it's what I do and I think it's good. It's the bottom of my range but I'm doing this every time

after I get 3b so small and a limper cold calls, it sucks but I I'm calling 35 and the pot is gunna be >200.... can't fold here.... again it's marginal and it sucks but this spot is rare but I'm calling

I obv know villain is super nutted...I would say 1% of the time it's something other than QQ+

on the KT7 flop when it checks to me this is the easiest snap check in the world... betting here would be incinerating money

now the turn spot was painful because it was one of those times where I actually had to try to calculate math in my head and have it not be automatic and obvious

when he bets 150 into 210 we have like 200 behind if we call

I'm giving him a range of basically AK, AA, and KK. That's it. Anything other hand I would categorize as a clowny spaz that he has 1% of the time or so. I think he is a nitty fishy type guy so he has AK+ here.

Now ok I'm assuming stacks are going in on 100% of rivers 100% of the time. We have 11 ''outs'' here... the tens and the spades. We have 9 spades and 2 tens so that's like 20% equity.... so we need to be getting 5-1 right? So that's like needing to call 150 to win 750? If I call and hit I win a full stack plus the dead money from one of the limpers, so that's like almost 1100 right there.... so should call

However.... on the T and A rivers... I thought like 5% of the time or whatever he could have a boat and I get stacked...and that small percentage of the time is small but is a factor

I like to think I'm folding 100% on ace rivers if he jams but in theory and in the heat of the moment are 2 diff things, and I thought that I could possibly level myself and get stacked if that were to happen

So I ended up folding and I like how I played the hand. If i were to play it any differently, I would prolly just call and reload if I miss... like peac b the journey said to do.

I just felt the need to post that hand because it is the hardest I have ever had to think in a hand of poker in a long time and was pretty painful lol

Its nice to see that you just wanted the math done for you. Your thought process is pretty close minded and terrible. GL at the tables.

Do you think they easily fold QQ-JJ on the flop to your cbet? What about sizing?

Having just played a couple sessions at MD Live (I was probably playing at a different table while this hand took place), let me chime in.

Min-raises preflop at MD Live 2/5 are NOT necessarily super nutted. That said, I'd fold preflop until I know for a fact whether this particular guy will min-raise with a non-nutted hand. The cold call preflop does not concern me because cold calling ranges in these games are super wide. However, since my hand is as weak as AT, I have to be concerned about being dominated. So, yeah, I fold preflop. The pot odds are almost meaningless. Reverse implied odds are far more important.

On the flop, I probably would also check back, but I think you are too quick to dismiss a bet. If you can fold out QQ/JJ that's a coup.

On the turn, your math is wrong. If you give yourself 11 outs, you need to be getting only 3:1 on a call, not 5:1 (11 cards that help you, to 33 cards that don't help you, for 3:1 odds). You are getting direct odds of 2.4:1 on a call. If you extract an average of $90 on the river when you hit, you can make this call. And because your flush draw is a backdoor draw, you will get paid more often than usual. Of course it is possible that Villain has KK and stacks you when a T hits; so you have to take that into account too. If this is a fold, and it might be, it is closer than you think it is.

The real problem in this hand is this: if you are folding now, after seeing a very good runout for your hand, that means the call preflop had to have been wrong.

I would bet big to get max fold equity from QQ-JJ on this street and make it look like he would be calling off the rest of his stack if he called so I like a bet of $185. If he calls that I'm checking back any turn.

Fold preflop and fold the turn. What do you do if you flop a K and he starts barelling?

What do you think his range is preflop? How about when he checks the flop?

I'd be interested to hear why you think betting the flop would be "incinerating money".

actually you're close minded and terrible. gl to you too

i understand this, but don't necessarily agree, we aren't going to always be facing this spot

pre i was pretty sure he was super nutted, and when he checks the flop he's going for a c/r because there are 2 ppl behind him and he prolly thinks im betting a lot

so i think im getting c/r a lot


the only reason to bet flop is to fold out QQ-JJ that's true but I just don't see it being profitable at all, I'm gunna get c/r and called down and **** a ton here


and after thinking about it more, I think turn is a call and fold if I whiff, 150 with 9 outs if i get it in and stack him its gunna be an $1100 pot and only has to be 900 to break even right? 750+150, anyway yeah I should call and reload if I miss I think

also, rofl @ everyone who said the preflop raise is bad, you guys dont like money

I like your other thing about the min 3b not usually being super nutted, but I think there's a huge difference between making it 40 from 20, and 70 from 35

if we are betting, 185 is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too big, that gives us basically 0 room to maneuver if called and commits him more.... If I think he has JJ-QQ here enough ( which I don't based on my read of him), then I'm betting like 115 on flop to give myself more fold equity on turn

115 on flop and then shove turn is better than just putting in one big bet and closing your eyes and praying....pretty fundamental concept... this way applies more pressure, but I thought he was super super strong here so I decided not to do it

I just think if you post a hand here, its a topic of discussion. You obviously know the game since you are sitting at. If you think you get checked raised on the flop a lot, then thats something you left out in OP. To come back and say, no no no, this is how you have to play it. Makes no sense other wise. Defeats the purpose of the post and forum IMO.

It's an interesting hand, thats why I responded. I do not think a check on the flop is wrong, but betting is better...as long as your willing to shove pretty much every turn. I also think calling on the turn is not optimal because you still have to get paid when you hit your gin card on river.

I don't think a flop check is terrible, but betting isn't terrible either.

If his range preflop is JJ+, AK, I would argue that his range starts to get tilted more towards KK, QQ, and JJ once he checks the flop. Do you think he continuation bets QQ or JJ into 2 players on a K high flop?

I think I like a bet/fold of $100 on the flop, with the plan to shove any non J/Q turn if villain just calls flop and checks turn. I think this plays against his entire range of JJ+, AK better than check/giving up, which basically is only correct against the tip top of his range.

agree, i just fire back when i feel like im being attacked, nothing personal man well actually it was but lol not anymore but yeah good point, I'm trying to post more so I'll be more open minded. thx for the input dude

I agree with betting the flop in a lot of spots but this one was just too sketchy

and yeah i would prolly would think about betting the flop a lot, but the small 3bet scared me, and i just felt like he was going for a c/r that particular time

fair enough, but with another player in the pot its a really tough call with QQ-JJ from his spot. You are turning your hand into a bluff, perfectly reasonable here because he only continues with AA/KK/AK and you will know if he has those right away obv.

turning your hand into a bluff with the important distinction that a whole bunch of turn cards give you a whole bunch of bonus equity.

Then you should figure out what kinds of spots you are hoping for when you make the preflop call, and figure out whether those kinds of spots will happen often enough to justify the pot odds. If you don't like this spot, then a spot you do like probably won't come up often enough.