Hi all, I'm hoping to improve my pre-flop and post-flop strategy..

I frequently find myself at loose aggressive tables where my early position raises of 12-15$ are seeing a flop 4-5 ways. If I try for a sizing of 20$ I usually get no action. I play best against 1-2 opponents, and so this is always what I'm hoping to achieve with my open raise (unless i'm raising with speculative hands, small pocket pairs, suited connectors etc..).

In general, my opening range from UTG and UTG+1 is very snug

(88+, KQs, AJs, AQ+) , mainly because I hate playing out of position against 3-5 opponents. I also throw in a variety of suited connectors for balance and because I find them easier to navigate postflop (I usually use a smaller sizing with those hands because I don't think sizing tells come into play too much at the games I'm in).

I would love advice on adjusting my pre-flop raising sizes and ranges to better combat these style tables. What raise sizing do you guys like with a strong but narrow range like the one above. I realize my stack depth will come into play here, mostly I am playing a 100-200 BB stack. Should I aim for a certain SPR with my entire range, or ignore my sizing tells and shoot for specific SPR's for certain hands? (what SPR's do you guys find are most profitable at loose aggressive tables?). Any help achieving 1-2 opponents going to the flop would help my game drastically.

But, considering that LAG's will be LAG's, I'm also hoping to improve my post flop strategy against many opponents, specifically C-bet frequency and sizing facing 3-5 opponents out of position (a pretty nasty situation any way you look at it). Mainly, I'm curious to hear your strategies when whiffing the flop with strong hands. How often are you guys bluffing into these opponents with two overs and a gut-shot, or two overs and back door flush draw? When are we just check giving up, and how often do we need to bring bluffs in as part of an overall strategy and image construction?

I don't like check giving up with AK/AQ on a J high flop, but my C-bets with those hands are costing me a lot of money.

Thanks for your time and any advice.

Don't C-bet whiffed flops vs more than 2 opponents.

Don't even think about it with more than 3 opponents.

-EV in most games IMO.

People who can't just x/f are the exact reason that you will see people making hero call downs.

With a 100bb stack, size your preflop raise so you can cbet 2/3 pot against two opponents on the flop, get 1 caller and barreling the turn threatens a river shove.

Some existing posts on pre-flop raise-sizes:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-much-1158380/

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...lop+raise+size

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...lop+raise+size

A really good post on cbetting:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...tting-1550652/

Personally, I like playing tight and cbetting close to 100% against up to two players unless the board is something like 876 or TT9 and I'm not pepared to get chips in. TPWK or top set on dry Ace high or King high flops are sometimes good candidates to check.

Read the sticky posts at the top of the forum and also use the forum search function.

I don't c-bet when:
It's multi-way & I'm OOP & I have SDV & minimal outs to improve; or, there's a ten on the flop with another card close, i.e., Q/8, 2 to a flush 3 way & one of the ten's otf with a 87 or J7 or Q7 to go with it. If my Vs are sticky, there's no point in c-betting with AKo on a JT6r or QT6r flop. The JT & QT hit so much of their range.

Came in here to post a link to the Concept of the Month on C-Betting, saw Nogyong already posted it. Read that. A lot. Like 5 times.

Bottom Line: "I don't like check giving up with AK/AQ on a J high flop" = too bad. Stop doing it against more than 2 Vs, like ever.

Learn how to play multiway pots: play more honestly, bluff very infrequently, accept you're going to have to give up a lot of pots but that it is fine because you don't need to win as often when it goes massively multiway.

FWIW I have been experimenting with a mixed strategy over the last 500 hours:

When a bunch of fishy preflop stations and good regs wait to act behind me I've been opening a tight but polarised range from EP where I'm happy getting folds because I've got a bunch of speculative hands in there but I'm also happy getting one or two callers of either the fishy or good variety as I have a range with good board coverage and the ability to flop/turn the nuts. What I hate hate hate is being OOP with my range face-up in a massive pot but with deep stacks and one or two good players in position on me postflop. This is my first major attempt at avoiding that happening so frequently, it ain't perfect but I've had fun trying it. Also bear in mind these are only approximations of my ranges - in reality they're pretty fluid and I couldn't really say precisely what they are on average because I'm gearing them based on situations and reads.

EP open to >6X QQ-TT AQo+ A5s-A2s KJs-64s

Open limp KK+ 99-22 AKs-A6s KQs-54s

Limp-reraise: very villain/situation dependent but some or all of: KK+ (AKs AQs sometimes) A9s-A6s 65s 54s

Limp-call: very villain/situation dependent but some or all of: 99-22 AKs-ATs KQs-76s

Just because I'm open limping I'm not then taking a passive line throughout the hand. As well as sometimes limp-rr pre I'm going to take the initiative postflop if it's heads-up/3-way with a mixture of hands and I'm going to be X/ring some and I'm going to be attempting to balance as and when necessary. I've found you can get some excellent fold equity via preflop limp/call and leading particular board textures.

The thing I notice is that if someone does isolate a bunch of limpers they go very large on their raise sizing. This means, if you open limp a not entirely weak range, you can get into a heads-up or 3-way pot without putting in the massive raise yourself preflop from EP which often scares everyone off. Thus sometimes I'll open limp really strong hands with a view not to limp-reraise but to just flat a massive raise and going HU to the flop. It's obviously a gamble because even with some aggressive players in late position you're not guaranteed a raise, particularly if you frequently limp-reraise when you do open-limp. In that sense I find it beneficial to be seen open-limp-calling and l/f sometimes: it makes you look like a recreational player so you blend in with the crowd and the aggressive players take longer to realise what you're up to - which they will do after you show up in their pots with TPTK+ when they're trying to barrel you off your perceived small pocket pair or protect against your perceived draw.

I'll then change between this strategy and either a small-ball small raise size (3X) opening range of 22+ A2s+ AQ+ BWs T9s-54s type thing if the preflop stations are out of the hand. This happens surprisingly often as players come and go and people go into and out of tilt. I find a table can suddenly change from a limpfest to more like a normal online game. Noticing when this happens is useful.

Alternatively if the good players are out of the hand and I'm just facing fish I'll just open big with 99+ AJ+ KQ and open limp whatever I feel like I can get away with.

I've had moderately favourable results at 1/1 buying in between £100 and £200 are +£9.50/hour over 460 hours for £4,266 total winnings. There are obviously more optimal ways to play than I'm managing but I have found trying out various strategies has given me a better understanding of how my opponents play and I've become more comfortable with my game and enjoyed it more than when I was always playing strictly by the book TAG.

The one thing I haven't yet tried very often is a strictly LAG approach. It can work as I see a handful of good players make it work but I think there are usually too many stations to be able to rely entire on a LAG style. Certainly to get fold equity and give yourself maximum room to bluff you need to be making some big overbets with both your made hands and your bluffs. When done well (by others mainly!) I've seen this be very effective even against low-stakes recreational players. However, I restrict myself to small bluffs on early streets in the main unless the situation is absolutely perfect for a big bluff on the turn or river. Mostly I'm trying to get the best value I can whichever overall style I'm using.

Feel free to criticize my approach - it's an experiment and I'm open to both constructive-criticism and ridicule! Believe me I've got into some spots from taking weird lines which I've found hilarious even while I've given up value over a traditional TAG approach on those hands.

Also thanks Nogyong for those links. I'll be giving them a thorough read myself today...

Open up your raising range and you wont find it so hard to check flops that you miss. Trust me.

Long story short in multiway pots basically check range from oop, only bet sets/straights/flushes occasionally.

Also, if it helps, think of it this way:

In your own experience you find yourself throwing away tons of money on cbets with Ace-high. So you raise to $12 get 4 callers and miss a flop with $60 in the pot. You cbet $22 with almost zero expectation of everyone folding. Your cbet's EV is around -$20.

By comparison the EV of x/f is 0. Money not lost is identical to money won so x/f is almost guaranteed to be +$20 greater EV than your favoured cbet line. You'd definitely take a +$20 EV line if it was aggressive and involved your opponents folding better or calling with worse because it would fuel your competitive desire to beat your opponents into submission. You don't feel comfortable taking the obviously +EV line for emotional reasons not for logical reasons.

Think of it this way: x/f is a smart play that is owning these opponents by making their speculative preflop calls less profitable.

The links posted above are good. I'd just say that the "....why raise so much" thread is old and, in my opinion, now quite out of date.

At least in my 1/1 and 1/2 games in the UK the vast majority of regulars know what's going on and will no longer stack off blindly with top pair bad kicker vs your TPTK+ The fish that will are in a tiny minority. The games play deepstack (>200bb) most of the time and it's the better players who are deep stacked. In my experience opening huge with your premiums in EP is rarely correct anymore. Usually it just makes both your EP ranges face up and leads to you playing terrible SPR OOP vs good opponents. I.e. you get owned. Late at night Vs some drunk recs this approach still works beautifully but most of the time you need some other strategies to be profitable.

In that 2012 thread Mpethybridge has it exactly right IMHO.

Wow, tons of great advice. Thanks guys, I should have plenty to think about before I go back on Friday. I'm sure I'll have some hands to share relating to those ideas as well.

I like this strategy Ragequit99, very cool. Seems like it could help avoid those situations of having a strong but transparent range against many opponents OOP. I will consider giving it a try, I might just let go of some of those suited one gappers, being out of position and all, but I like the idea of having a more deceptive range. Sounds like you've had reasonable success with it.

Also Nogyong, thanks for those links. Seems like a lot of good information there.

As far as my open raise sizing goes, it sounds like 15$ is a good amount, allowing me to set up a river shove without needing to bet more than 2/3 pot on any street..

I'll just have to remember to change that sizing as stacks get deeper. I've set myself up for some terrible SPR's (10-15) in the past by using default open sizes.

I've done ok but please remember I'm still experimenting myself and a lot of it is by feel rather than sticking to a particular set of ranges. I'm not applying these ranges by rote in any and all situations. They're for illustrative purposes only!

A more accurate description of my strategy would be:

1) sit down and buy in short (70bb)
2) play tight tight tight while I observe the table for a couple of orbits.
3) decide which of my vague strategies listed above I'll implement and then buy in to table maximum or not depending on the approach I decide to take.
4) constantly watch every hand that goes down so I can keep track of table dynamics and switch strategies accordingly.

What I find is table dynamics actually change pretty rapidly due to the fluctuations of people's emotions. Therefore I can't stick to rigid ranges really anywhere.

For example I might notice: "oh, this loose guy is hugely bluffy and this other guy absolutely hates his guts right now because he's folded to two bluffs and then got stacked the third time." What that tells me is the game is going to revolve around these two players till the angry guy gets his revenge, calms down or leaves. While that's happening it would be suicide to open any kind of speculative hand because I'm going to get forced out of the pot so often. On the other hand if I can make a reasonable pair against these two guys I could get paid really easily. Thus my ranges as above go out the window and I might start limping 77+ and AT+ KJ+ QJ in hopes of making a reasonable pair to call them down with. I don't want to take the initiative away from them though otherwise I'll interrupt their dynamic and force them to play "normally" again.

Alternatively I might notice that it's only a couple of players who are really loose and aggro and everyone else are weak-tight fit-or-fold. Obviously I'm going to play entirely different when the two aggro players are in the hand as opposed to when they are out because when they're in I've got low fold equity and won't get a good price to draw while when they're out I'll have plenty of fond equity and be able to set my own price to draw. Because it will be pretty random and infrequent when both aggro guys fold in front of me I may well not wait for hands strictly in my range before I raise the weak-tight players!

Etc. Etc etc....

I know how to beat your game....

If youre not getting action with raises to $20, just raise more often. There have been times when nobody was calling my raises so I literally said out loud "if you guys dont start calling my raises Im going to raise 4 times every orbit" and then I raised the next 4 hands in a row. I promise you they will start calling.

Dont lower your raise sizes to meet other people wishes and dont lower your raises according to your hand strength.