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Pre-flop decision with ATs

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08-01-2018 , 01:31 PM

jet_fuel11

enthusiast

Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 89

Haven't played in a while and last session had some doubts in pre-flop spots. Game is 1/2 9 handed

Utg (unknown) raises to 6, standard raise is usually 10 so wasn't sure what to make of this. Tightish reg raises to 14 from MP (have only seen him play one hand where he won a sizable pot with the nuts, rest of the time just folding).
Folds to hero OTB with ATs.
Hero?

Seeing as MP is 3betting an UTG open, even though for a small amount, I figure that his range should be fairly tight and I folded, is this too nitty?

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08-01-2018 , 01:43 PM

sabloid

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 490

Without much read on the players I think it’s okay to call or fold. And it’s only a call because you have position. You also don’t know if UTG can 4-bet so a fold is fine. I wouldn’t say it’s nitty.

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08-01-2018 , 02:20 PM

QuadJ

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 6,237

Folding is fine and likely best in this situation. I would need a better read on ranges for villains and pretty deep stacks before I'm really interested in this hand. The action makes the situation dicey, either way catching one pair leaves you guessing if you are good or not. This means you are really fishing for something better then one pair and you need to be pretty deep to make it worth while.

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08-01-2018 , 02:42 PM

jet_fuel11

enthusiast

Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 89

Yeah that was my thinking as well. As you can imagine I would have scooped a 300bb pot against MPs flopped set and UTGs lower flush, hence the self doubt

thanks for the feedback.

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08-01-2018 , 03:58 PM

325MG

stranger

Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 11

Based on what you told us about the opponents and the action before your turn,
........, I setup Snowie with your ATs OTB and I put myself in the HJ on his right side. I reraised (3bet) with ATC and he folded. I just wnt to see what he's gonna do with ATs OTB facing a 3bet from his right.

So, yeh! .., folding is the correct play according to my friend Snowie.

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08-01-2018 , 04:15 PM

LordRiverRat

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 3,675

It depends on how deep you guys are. If it's just 2 or 3 hundo, fine with folding. If you guys are deeper I wouldn't. A $14 reraise after a $6 raise isn't the same as a $40 reraise after a $12 raise. You have position and probably quite a bit of skill edge if these guys are sizing their raises like this.

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08-01-2018 , 04:53 PM

samo

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,251

Stack sizes are important to determine your action. Deeper may be a call, but a 3b from a tight player makes me fold this.

I believe ATs is a top ~12% (range) hand. Looks good but pales in comparison to a tight 3-bettor range (low single digit %).

Wp.

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08-01-2018 , 04:57 PM

setintostraight

adept

Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 884

What above 2 posters said ^.

Stack dependent. I wouldn't treat this as a real 3!, and if we're deep enough, we can treat this as just a suited ace hand to see if we can hit a flush draw.

150BB+, this is definitely a call, given position.

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08-01-2018 , 08:31 PM

DrChesspain

Guest

Posts: n/a

I'd probably fold, but it's probably not a big difference between calling and folding.

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08-02-2018 , 02:56 AM

#10

Badreg2017

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 1,682

Primarily fold but all 3 are reasonable. If I’m going to do anything but fold though I would like to be at least 150 BB’s deep and have a very clear idea of how they play and how I can exploit them post flop. If I just sat down and we are 100 bb’s deep I fold.

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08-02-2018 , 07:15 AM

#11

FightingFish

centurion

Join Date: Jul 2018 Posts: 151

Either or seems fine but I'm not calling to call three streets on a A or T high board.
So long as we know what we're calling for and can play well post flop IP.

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08-02-2018 , 07:17 AM

#12

Minatorr

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 5,235

Folding is std

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08-02-2018 , 12:11 PM

#13

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 11,344

folding isn't too nitty at all.

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08-02-2018 , 12:50 PM

#14

shorn7

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,495

Gotta have stack sizes to even make an educated reply.

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08-02-2018 , 03:16 PM

#15

johnnyBuz

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 7,563

You didn't give effective stacks but I'm not folding ATs on the BTN facing a 7x "3bet."

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08-02-2018 , 06:37 PM

#16

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 11,344

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyBuz

You didn't give effective stacks but I'm not folding ATs on the BTN facing a 7x "3bet."

I think your acct got hijacked

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08-02-2018 , 06:52 PM

#17

johnnyBuz

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 7,563

Quote:

Originally Posted by Playbig2000

I think your acct got hijacked

Nope, but the deeper we are the more likely I am to call.

Villain can be 3! as wide as 88+/AQ versus a $6 open. Villain is four times as likely to have KK/QQ than AA (12 combos vs. 3 combos).

If villain is piling chips in on an Axx flop for multiple streets than you can ditch your hand but folding to a 7 BB 3bet with ATs on the BTN is too nitty if you have any idea how to play postflop.

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08-02-2018 , 06:58 PM

#18

Playbig2000

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 11,344

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyBuz

you said your calling regardless of stacks. A lot of things would need to line up to flat (he doesn't over bet his streets, he can fold an over pair to a jam, if you hit you still get paid, and others).

It's not an auto call. I know how pretty the hand looks but it is what it is

*and most importantly your deep enough

Last edited by Playbig2000; 08-02-2018 at 07:21 PM. Reason: *

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08-02-2018 , 07:34 PM

#19

johnnyBuz

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 7,563

The pot was 300 BB's so they were at least 150 BB's effective. That seems deep enough to flat. Our equity alone + absolute position is enough to flat - we don't need the stars to align.

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08-02-2018 , 07:56 PM

#20

ahsfl

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 276

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyBuz

The pot was 300 BB's so they were at least 150 BB's effective. That seems deep enough to flat. Our equity alone + absolute position is enough to flat - we don't need the stars to align.

That only means the vs were deep enough, effective still easily could be <100.

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08-02-2018 , 08:09 PM

#21

johnnyBuz

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 7,563

Hence why I asked for effective stacks...

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08-03-2018 , 12:16 AM

#22

adam levine

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,569

Johnny is correct, if you are less than 100 bb deep, it is a standard fold. I d like to be at least 150 bb deep with either villain to call. The smallish raise in UtG is usually indicative of a small pocket pair or suited connectors and occasionally a monster. The problem with flatting the 3! is that it opens the action, so that occasional monster burns your equity...as you won't get to see a flop when he 4 bets.
Also don't be results oriented, because you would have won a large pot...Doesn't mean that its the correct play.

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