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Old 03-11-2014, 10:37 PM   #1
Vee Quiva
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Pot control goes awry

5-500 Spread Limit at Casino Arizona.

I have $400 in front of me. Villain has me covered. Villain has been active raising 30-40% of hands. He has shown down some weak starting hands that backed into 2 pair so it's fair to say he's loose aggressive but he is capable of hand reading and laying a hand down.

Villain open limps from middle position. I raise to $25 with AJ everyone else folds and the Villain calls.

$$50 in the pot and flop is A::Q3

Villain checks and I bet $30. Villain hesitates for a little while (it felt like he was thinking of raising) and then calls. I had seen him call quickly when he had top pair and medium kicker previously so his delay had my antenna up.

The turn is 8

He checks. I check hoping to keep the pot kind of small. I plan on betting a non diamond river.

The river is the 3

Villain bets $120. A slight overbet.

Does anyone call here? Would a shove raise be enough to get a small flush to fold?
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Old 03-11-2014, 11:00 PM   #2
DUCYdonk
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Re: Pot control goes awry

Just fold.
Also, bet turn.
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Old 03-11-2014, 11:01 PM   #3
Troyble
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Re: Pot control goes awry

$80 on the turn
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Old 03-12-2014, 01:38 AM   #4
HiroNakamara
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Re: Pot control goes awry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vee Quiva View Post
5-500 Spread Limit at Casino Arizona.

I have $400 in front of me. Villain has me covered. Villain has been active raising 30-40% of hands. He has shown down some weak starting hands that backed into 2 pair so it's fair to say he's loose aggressive but he is capable of hand reading and laying a hand down.

Villain open limps from middle position. I raise to $25 with AJ everyone else folds and the Villain calls.

$$50 in the pot and flop is A::Q3

Villain checks and I bet $30. Villain hesitates for a little while (it felt like he was thinking of raising) and then calls. I had seen him call quickly when he had top pair and medium kicker previously so his delay had my antenna up.

The turn is 8

He checks. I check hoping to keep the pot kind of small. I plan on betting a non diamond river.

The river is the 3

Villain bets $120. A slight overbet.

Does anyone call here? Would a shove raise be enough to get a small flush to fold?
I'd be surprised if he showed up with a flush.
His overbet is too strong.
He's either got a missed draw (like KJ) or a boat.

I hate the 30 bet into 50 on a straightening and flushing board. I would have charged more. I would also have bet the turn.

But as played, fold.
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Old 03-12-2014, 03:31 AM   #5
GrindPokerAllDay
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Re: Pot control goes awry

You're not going to make money at this level if you take lines like turning top pair into a bluff to get a FLUSH of all hands to fold here. Just not profitable at all.

Anyways, just fold. If you bet turn, you will likely control betting on river and can make it go check-check and villain will huff and puff because he was going to check-raise you...or if he leads river then you can still safely fold your hand.
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Old 03-12-2014, 01:49 PM   #6
dgiharris
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Re: Pot control goes awry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vee Quiva View Post
5-500 Spread Limit at Casino Arizona.

I have $400 in front of me. Villain has me covered. Villain has been active raising 30-40% of hands. He has shown down some weak starting hands that backed into 2 pair so it's fair to say he's loose aggressive but he is capable of hand reading and laying a hand down.

Villain open limps from middle position. I raise to $25 with AJ everyone else folds and the Villain calls.

$$50 in the pot and flop is A::Q3

Villain checks and I bet $30. Villain hesitates for a little while (it felt like he was thinking of raising) and then calls. I had seen him call quickly when he had top pair and medium kicker previously so his delay had my antenna up.

The turn is 8

He checks. I check hoping to keep the pot kind of small. I plan on betting a non diamond river.

The river is the 3

Villain bets $120. A slight overbet.

Does anyone call here? Would a shove raise be enough to get a small flush to fold?
If there is anything you need to get tattooed on your soul in regards to LLSNL play it is this...

95% of the LLSNL player pool is biologically incapable of folding a hand that is strong in the absolute hand strength sense of the hand in question.

That is, a flush is a strong hand, nevermind that it is a baby flush, and even if the board paired and a baby flush is not only vulnerable to a bigger flush but to a full house as well most LLSNL players are never folding even for 100bb stacks...

In short, you can almost never fold out a baby flush in this spot. Never, so don't even let thoughts like this cross your mind at this level.

Next item I want to get to is the below because it is kinda what recreational players do and think


So the question here is, do we bluff catch?

You stated that:

Quote:
He has shown down some weak starting hands that backed into 2 pair so it's fair to say he's loose aggressive but he is capable of hand reading and laying a hand down.
Quote:
He checks. I check hoping to keep the pot kind of small. I plan on betting a non diamond river.
IN a heads up situation vs the described villain, I don't mind playing for stacks for 100bb with AJ in this spot. So go ahead and charge him on the turn and pot it.

The other problem I have with the above quote is that it feels more like a play that is designed to make sure you win the hand rather than a play that is designed to extract max EV. I mean, if V is on a flush draw how exactly are you going to make the most money from V. If you check turn and then bet non-diamond rivers V is going to fold and then you make no more money right????

So the only way you make more money from V is charging him on the turn when you are ahead and he is behind, so why wouldn't we want to bet turn?

But then, after all of the above "I'll wait for a non-diamond river to bet..." now once the diamond comes in you are actually thinking of bluffing or bluff catching....

that is kinda what rec-fish do. They don't bet the turn in these spots because they are scared, but then when the scare card hits they go ahead and pay it off anyways and then will often say, "Yeah, I knew you were on a flush draw, nice catch!" and they say this as villain is racking up the chips hero just paid him off with

Don't be that guy.

If you read V for a flush draw then river is a trivial fold.

If V can/will float you on this flop with ATC with the plan to bluff you off on scary rivers more than 33%-ish of the time you can bluff catch river... but that is more of a justification to spazz call imo.

So i'd just go ahead and fold here and next time bet the freakin turn
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Old 03-12-2014, 05:30 PM   #7
Troyble
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Re: Pot control goes awry

^This is a very good post, top to bottom. When I first transitioned to live play my soul definitely lacked that tattoo, and I gave too many players too much credit for hand reading. Over time, you will start recognizing more and more situations where your tattoo dictates an unintuitive thin value bet, or a potential bluffing opportunity (like this one) that you should pass on 100% of the time.
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Old 03-12-2014, 05:55 PM   #8
85chickasaw
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Re: Pot control goes awry

grunch: fold

too many hands beat you. that price is obviously terrible. he played passive until the river too so i'm not counting on him just stealing. and that size seems more like a "dare to call me" bet trying to get paid off his monster.

i would suspect a flush more than anything.
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:25 PM   #9
bwslim69
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Re: Pot control goes awry

Stop thinking of "pot controlling" TPGK (particularly 80bb deep) and start trying to squeeze more value out of these hands. Not betting turn is pretty bad

People seem to take this pot controlling thing wayyyyyyyyyyyy too far. It really has a small place in LLSNL and really speaks to not paying attention to our opponents and actively trying to put them on a range throughout the hand.
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:35 PM   #10
Yokoblue
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Re: Pot control goes awry

Minus the fact that the flush got there and he probably has it from the read... Am I the only one that got the fact that we have no kicker ? We play the pair of ace with the board... So we split low aces, and get beat by 3, flush. Easy fold. We call to basically split the pot in the best case.
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:46 PM   #11
dgiharris
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Re: Pot control goes awry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yokoblue View Post
Minus the fact that the flush got there and he probably has it from the read... Am I the only one that got the fact that we have no kicker ? We play the pair of ace with the board... So we split low aces, and get beat by 3, flush. Easy fold. We call to basically split the pot in the best case.
good catch...

for some reason I missed that the board paired...

so yeah, basically "best" case scenario is we chop, worse case we lose. Putting in our money "hoping" to get half of it back is the epitome of a bad bet...

easy fold
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:08 PM   #12
jsmo0th10
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Re: Pot control goes awry

Bet turn every single time. Pot it. Are we folding if we blast the turn and this guy stuffs it down our throat??
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