My bad I guess, I misread the OP, I thought we were the ones with $335.

Though I still think it's a 3-bet or fold spot. We have one villain @ 335 eff, and another at $500 eff, that averages to about $420 eff, which is still less than the somewhat arbitrary 150BB threshhold I would use for nut-mining with 8 high. Plus there are other players left to act, we don't know what their stacks are. And the biggest stack belongs to the tightest player. A lot of intangibles here, not deterministic math

Let's use GG's math from a few post back. And let's say that a V makes a decent c-bet of $60 and we go heads up to the turn (which really is the best case scenario). He calculated we need V to payoff $120 on the turn, but that's still a break even play. And the chances that the other guy folds to an obvious flush card is not zero. So even under the best circumstances, we need to hit, and have another opponent put in $200+ dollars with a second-best hand, and even then the EV is slim. None of that is a recipe for winning poker. It's weak-knee scaredy cat play perpetuated by casinos full of people without bankrolls.

Just 3-ball the hand pre-flop, isolate some MAWG who thinks he can play like he sees on TV, and then force him to fold when his Q9s whiffs.

I could keep going, but here are the major bullet points.
1 - Your chances of flopping the joint AND getting paid are a jillion to 1, and effective stacks do not justify it.
2 - Your chances of flopping a draw are fair, however, with a low SPR and multiple opponents, the money is almost always going in on the flop. At the very least, commitment decisions will almost always be made on the flop....when you're behind.

Your posts ITT are completely worthless.

I don't believe in a 'commitment threshold' in cash games.

I think you meant "priceless"

If you're playing SC's solely for value, don't invest more than 2% of the average effective stack pre-flop.

Well I'm not going to start a war over vocabulary. Use whatever terminology you want. But I don't believe in investing large fractions of your stack and subsequently folding.

If that's happening, it's because you were just clicking buttons and didn't really have a plan for the hand.

Define large. I wouldn't have a problem calling the $60 OTB and seeing the turn and then folding after putting in $75.

I also have no problem putting in half my stack or more. Sometimes, you have to fold in certain spots when you no longer have the best hand.

Personally, I see that as just clicking buttons and gambling. I guess you can concoct some implied odds that justify the call on the flop, but wouldn't justify a call on the turn. To me that style of poker relies on catching cards instead of exploiting your opponents weaknesses.

Plus, the line you're advocating is so obvious and common, that it makes YOU exploitable. Flat preflop, Flat a draw heavy flop, then get busy when a third spade falls....who's gonna pay you off? I guarantee most players don't think that through when calculating their implied odds. If you call the $60, hit, and V folds.....you did not make a profitable play....you just got lucky.


Yeah, if you flop a straight and the board is 4-flushed by the river, go ahead and cut your losses. But this kind of stuff shouldn't' be a routine occurrence if you playing each hand with a plan and reasonable expectations.

We really should have reconsidered voting BadlyBeaten as the Welcome Wagon host.

GwelcometotheforumsPokerisEZ,hopeyouhaveathickskin !G

Interesting discussion on play with SCs. Id like to add my 2cents.

a) 87s on btn is good hand, should not fold unless there is a 3bet.
b) 3b pre is not bad, but as for sqz we should use rather linear range, this is too wide sqz. Anyway 3b is OK when blinds are squeeze happy or we expect good FE preflop.
c) 100% agree with poster who said SCs are not esp good deepstacked. It is nice to have 500bb eff and great implied. Unfortunately we are not able to use it, cannot stack off for deep stack with low flush. Here we must look for Axs, only nuts/very close to nuts hands can go AI so deep.

Don't worry about me. And Mr. BB will learn eventually, either by reading here, or by losing all of his money. I tend to take a minority view in most poker situations, and I'm comfortable with it because the majority of poker players suck.

I know "experts" and "veterans" and "authors" will happily preach the benefit of drawing hands and position. But I truly believe it is the GREATEST misconception in poker. Speculative hands need either A) Awesome implied odds, or B) tons of post-flop fold equity.

Multi way with low SPR does not fit either of those molds. 2-3% of effective stacks really should be the upper limit of a pre-flop call. If you can't do that, then fold or raise, and that's a table dependent call.

Fold pre.

Not deep enough vs the opener to simply try and hit our hand. If you had some stone-cold reads where you knew you could bluff and take pots away post flop, that's one thing. Doesn't sound like it here tho. It's close IMO.

AP,

V1 is clicking buttons.
V2 likes his hand and I'm assuming isn't folding. Since we don't have reads, I'm assuming a rando $1/3 player isn't going HAM with some combo draw. So we probably don't have the fold equity needed to 3-bet here.

I'm calling but I'm not loving it.