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Old 12-31-2016, 04:26 AM   #1
niceguy22
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Possibly getting bluffed by fish...2 hands

Villain is a pretty big fish. Ive seen villain make 30% of pot size bluffs when his draws wiff. Generally plays his big hands fast. Has lots of money (in real life) and doesnt really care too much if he loses. His play varries between loose passive and loose aggressive.

H1: $1/2
3 limps
Villain is on my right and limps in the CO ($650)
I limp on button with Q8 off ($550)
Fold, check

Flop: $13
Q82
Folds to me and i bet $10, bb calls, villain raises to 35, i call, fold

Turn: $83
Q82J
Villain bets $60, i raise to $200, villain calls.

River $483
Q82JT
Villain leads $175, I call, and villain has Q3 and I ship a big pot. Fwiw, villain said he was blffing the river

Hand 2

A few hands have past. I called him down twice in 2 smallish other pots, both of which he won (I was bluffcatching)

He raises to $10 ($450)
I raise to $35 with JJ, folds around, he calls

Flop ($73)
K74

Villain leads $35, i consider folding but call

Turn ($143)
K742

Villain leads $35. Im thinking his sizing is indicative of a draw (blocking bet), and I decide to raise fold the turn and chekc back the river. I raise to 70, he calls.

River ($283)
K7423

Villain leads 100

Flush draw missed, straight draw got there (but its not all that likely that he had this). Could have like KJ or something around there. In hand #1, I showed a lot of strength and he still tried to bluff me. This time, I 3bet so i showed even more strength. I ended up folding, which i now think was a mistake because of pot odds. At the time, my reasoning was:

I showed big time strength but i also showed strength hand 1, which he bluffed.

He saw that I had the goods H1, but maybe he didnt notice/ factor this in.

I just called him down in 3 pots in a row (vs him) and he must realize this?? Like if this was my first hand against him tonight then I would probably call. I was basically giving him credit for adjusting. Maybe I shouldnt give bad villains any credit for knowing to adjust? Just seemed like an obvious / easy adjsutment for him to think. What do you think about this?? I think one of my leaks might be giving bad villains too much credit for adjusting a bit in obvious spots. Thanks!
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Old 12-31-2016, 04:39 AM   #2
Dochrohan
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Re: Possibly getting bluffed by fish...2 hands

Hand 1: Pre-flop is meh, but wtv.

Turn is odd, if we raise, we're committed to every river.

Hand 2:

Vs this villain turn is just a call or fold. He's going to lead too much on rivers and we're going to be building a pot vs his Kx range too much and value own ourselves.

If you went call flop and call turn, I'd be fine with this hand.

As played river, got to call now.



Vs fish, you don't need to adjust before they adjust. You can however take different routes in order to slow down the process of adjustment of fish while still milking at a high clip. If they are a regular fish and you keep frying them every single pot, you can start a fued where they don't sit with you. Happens every once in a while. However, for the most part, exploit, exploit, and exploit some more.
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Old 12-31-2016, 11:33 AM   #3
papagavin
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Re: Possibly getting bluffed by fish...2 hands

I'd 3b flop in h1, in h2 I don't really understand the turn raise. If he's bluffing then just call and let him keep bluffing.
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:38 PM   #4
Tiltyjoker
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Re: Possibly getting bluffed by fish...2 hands

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Originally Posted by papagavin View Post
I'd 3b flop in h1, in h2 I don't really understand the turn raise. If he's bluffing then just call and let him keep bluffing.
He was trying to charge draws while getting to showdown for cheaper if villain does have a better made hand. So instead of having the decision of call/folding potentially something like $35/$60, he gets to showdown majority of time for $70 on turn
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Old 12-31-2016, 09:47 PM   #5
papagavin
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Re: Possibly getting bluffed by fish...2 hands

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Originally Posted by Tiltyjoker View Post
He was trying to charge draws while getting to showdown for cheaper if villain does have a better made hand. So instead of having the decision of call/folding potentially something like $35/$60, he gets to showdown majority of time for $70 on turn
Yeah I mean I see what it's trying to achieve but I just don't really see what the point of shutting down their ability to bluff is, and we end up in a tough spot anyway if they raise or if they go ahead and bet anyway because now we have to start leveling ourselves about how we never raise this sizing with a strong hand and they might have thought so too and decided to keep bluffing.

I think it's much better to just flat and face the possible decision for a bigger $ amt OTR but do it with a properly distributed range rather than {medium strength value hands only, no draws, no strong or even semi-strong value}. that we can play poker with rather than try soul read. The extra bluffs we allow V will make up for any losses.
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Old 12-31-2016, 10:04 PM   #6
Tiltyjoker
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Re: Possibly getting bluffed by fish...2 hands

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Originally Posted by papagavin View Post
Yeah I mean I see what it's trying to achieve but I just don't really see what the point of shutting down their ability to bluff is, and we end up in a tough spot anyway if they raise or if they go ahead and bet anyway because now we have to start leveling ourselves about how we never raise this sizing with a strong hand and they might have thought so too and decided to keep bluffing.

I think it's much better to just flat and face the possible decision for a bigger $ amt OTR but do it with a properly distributed range rather than {medium strength value hands only, no draws, no strong or even semi-strong value}. that we can play poker with rather than try soul read. The extra bluffs we allow V will make up for any losses.
Yeah I agree. But I think it's still not too bad of a raise. If villain is good enough to realize we only have a medium strength range and Jam on us with draws then yeah it's pretty damn bad. But how many players have you ever come across that are capable of that @ 2/5 and lower
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Old 12-31-2016, 10:13 PM   #7
mikko
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Re: Possibly getting bluffed by fish...2 hands

You 2.5x turn with 2 pair for value. So I can expect same in future.

Min-raise is obv blocker bet. To see cheap River.

Standard play is to call. Lead rivers with value hands.

Seems your a bit stationy. He is trying to combat it, but obviously doesnt know how. Since he turned TP into a bluff.

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Old 12-31-2016, 10:24 PM   #8
papagavin
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Re: Possibly getting bluffed by fish...2 hands

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Originally Posted by Tiltyjoker View Post
Yeah I agree. But I think it's still not too bad of a raise. If villain is good enough to realize we only have a medium strength range and Jam on us with draws then yeah it's pretty damn bad. But how many players have you ever come across that are capable of that @ 2/5 and lower
IME most LLSNL players just look for any possible way to convince themselves there is a chance they can win the hand. Usually this is expressed by them stationing off when we have value hands by thinking about how we could be bluffing and they could win by calling, especially in big pots where they have something decent and they're married to the absolute instead of relative strength of their hand.

So I don't think its unreasonable that they could see the raise, make the call with a draw etc then when they don't get there OTR stop and think about if they can win by betting because they know they lose when they check and that's when they'd think about things like "well he raised so small on the turn so maybe he doesn't have anything" etc, and suddenly we have ourselves in a pretty rotten spot with 4-1 (and an even more rotten spot if they bomb it), because of our range being so one dimensional that we just have to soul read. V doesn't need to be very much of a thinking player to do this, I find even the ones that don't really think about any of this stuff during the hand will think of it when the decision becomes between <do x> or <give up the pot entirely>, doesn't mean they think about this stuff deeply otherwise because they take terrible lines everywhere else, but I guess they have an a-ha moment here.

I think if we're getting into a spot like this OTR or raised OTT and not knowing what to do even a small % of the time then it's just going to be a lot better to take the normal approach of call/evaluate river, and we prob need a pretty specific understanding of V's play to know this line will be better.
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