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Old 01-21-2019, 12:08 PM   #151
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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This is absolutely correct. It was equally correct during the boom. For how many people has the overall decline in the poker economy caused it to go from being the best option to not? I think it might be significantly fewer than you would think.
This is actually interesting. During the boom, if you had a little focus and discipline you could get up to speed and build a roll really fast, and knock back 6 figures quite easily. For a kid dicking around right out of high school with zero direction this was in fact a fantastic option. These days the glass ceiling is both lower and thicker. Fact is the gamboolin landscape has changed dramatically over the last couple o decades. I dont see poker dying anytime soon. Guys that work hard, dont tilt, and do all the stuff that pros are spoda do will do just fine.

That being said. Someone that does those things would be far better served going into another career that is both more fulfilling and more lucrative. What this entire thread has neglected is the nasty energy suck that the casino environment is and that cost that it has on your personal well being.
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Old 01-21-2019, 04:20 PM   #152
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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This is actually interesting. During the boom, if you had a little focus and discipline you could get up to speed and build a roll really fast, and knock back 6 figures quite easily. For a kid dicking around right out of high school with zero direction this was in fact a fantastic option. These days the glass ceiling is both lower and thicker. Fact is the gamboolin landscape has changed dramatically over the last couple o decades. I dont see poker dying anytime soon. Guys that work hard, dont tilt, and do all the stuff that pros are spoda do will do just fine.

That being said. Someone that does those things would be far better served going into another career that is both more fulfilling and more lucrative. What this entire thread has neglected is the nasty energy suck that the casino environment is and that cost that it has on your personal well being.
Mostly agree but even ime for the guys that work hard and do all the right things, things are absolutely trending in the wrong direction. Needing to work harder and evolve your game for less $/more variance/emotional stress has got to be a bummer.

+1000 to the nasty energy suck/cost to your personal being
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Old 01-21-2019, 04:47 PM   #153
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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This is actually interesting. During the boom, if you had a little focus and discipline you could get up to speed and build a roll really fast, and knock back 6 figures quite easily. For a kid dicking around right out of high school with zero direction this was in fact a fantastic option. These days the glass ceiling is both lower and thicker. Fact is the gamboolin landscape has changed dramatically over the last couple o decades. I dont see poker dying anytime soon. Guys that work hard, dont tilt, and do all the stuff that pros are spoda do will do just fine.
I was hoping you would pop in. My philosophy regarding treating poker like a business was somewhat molded by you. It's nice to see the perspective of someone who has been around for years.

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That being said. Someone that does those things would be far better served going into another career that is both more fulfilling and more lucrative. What this entire thread has neglected is the nasty energy suck that the casino environment is and that cost that it has on your personal well being.
This is what I mean when I say I feel like I live on a different planet. I do not understand why the casino environment is negative. I understand why other people think it is, but I have never had the same experiences/feelings. The only negative aspect of the casino environment that I recognize is that sitting for a long time is bad for you, but you get that at a desk job, too. My mental well-being has only improved since starting to play poker. My social skills have improved a lot, too. Learning to play poker was the best decision I have made in terms of positive effects, just behind dropping out of high school.
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Old 01-21-2019, 04:52 PM   #154
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

Free-admission-to-the-general-public-poker never was a happening place. If you were hip and/or smart you would’ve been elsewhere.

No rake private games with good friends and good friends alone...that’s what poker was best for.
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:06 PM   #155
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

Browni - A lot of people really enjoy the casino environment, and that is totally cool (more power to em). However, having spent thousands upon thousands of hours in the casino and seeing the vitriol and venom that people spew; the fangs that appear when a person that is so drunk that they can hardly see shows up, the never ending angling, the lives that have gotten ruined, etc etc - it is simply too much, I have had all the pie I can stand and I am over it. For me it is simply to negative and not to get all hippy on you, but there is so much fun stuff out there to do where people are genuinely happy to see you and really hope that you succeed in life and the poker room seems just about the opposite of that
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Old 01-21-2019, 05:17 PM   #156
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

But why is this thread in a strategy forum? So depressing.
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Old 01-21-2019, 07:38 PM   #157
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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Browni - A lot of people really enjoy the casino environment, and that is totally cool (more power to em). However, having spent thousands upon thousands of hours in the casino and seeing the vitriol and venom that people spew; the fangs that appear when a person that is so drunk that they can hardly see shows up, the never ending angling, the lives that have gotten ruined, etc etc - it is simply too much, I have had all the pie I can stand and I am over it. For me it is simply to negative and not to get all hippy on you, but there is so much fun stuff out there to do where people are genuinely happy to see you and really hope that you succeed in life and the poker room seems just about the opposite of that
This is the main reason that I play in the absolutely nittiest poker room on the planet when there are several other rooms with much more action within 30 min drive. The Isle is chock full of OMC nitty guys but they are also very interesting people that you can have an interesting conversation with while playing. Theyve got a crazy amount of varied life experiences.

The Hard Rock and other rooms have a lot more action, but they also have a lot more anglers, guys who want to fight when you ask them to move over half an inch...ect.

I enjoy spending as much time as I do in the poker room but I would enjoy it a lot less in some of other rooms that Ive played in around the Country.
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Old 01-21-2019, 07:52 PM   #158
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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This is the main reason that I play in the absolutely nittiest poker room on the planet when there are several other rooms with much more action within 30 min drive. The Isle is chock full of OMC nitty guys but they are also very interesting people that you can have an interesting conversation with while playing. Theyve got a crazy amount of varied life experiences.

The Hard Rock and other rooms have a lot more action, but they also have a lot more anglers, guys who want to fight when you ask them to move over half an inch...ect.

I enjoy spending as much time as I do in the poker room but I would enjoy it a lot less in some of other rooms that Ive played in around the Country.

While iím a bit disappointed I got caught up in this topic...

I absolutely agree with you. If you donít like the people in a room, if you donít yet have the leadership skill to overcome your disappointments and instill good things in others that you dislike, then avoid that room.

I absolutely believe there is growth to be had and gold to pass down. Itís important that we all (who are likely in poker for the long haul) learn to respect and benefit from our elders in the game. So, yea, find them, play with them...and when itís your time pass along what wisdom you gained, then youíll be ready.
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Old 01-21-2019, 07:54 PM   #159
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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I enjoy spending as much time as I do in the poker room but I would enjoy it a lot less in some of other rooms that Ive played in around the Country.
I 100% believe this. The vibe in my florida room was so bad it hurt
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Old 01-21-2019, 07:56 PM   #160
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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I 100% believe this. The vibe in my florida room was so bad it hurt
Which Florida room?
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Old 01-30-2019, 06:53 AM   #161
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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If it prevents you from spewing off then yes. If you're a regular on 2+2 that plays a full-time schedule and you end up with a break-even year, I gurantee you tilted off somewhere in the ballpark of 35k-40k.


That's about 3k a month of blunders. Even a disciplined 2-5 grinder probably gives back approx 1k a month in profits due to awful decisions that were primarily tilt induced.


This another reason against "LOL live games are harrrrrd". If a rec or bad reg starts to run bad, expect them to start punting off hard. Preflop discipline goes out the window, and post flop becomes a train wreck horror show.
FWIW methinks this post is accurate. Tilt happens a lot for a lot of players. Always has, always will.

Last edited by adios; 01-30-2019 at 06:58 AM.
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Old 01-30-2019, 01:50 PM   #162
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

If you want to play live poker for a living and you're consistently playing 2/5 or lower you're doing it wrong imo.

Having this discussion on live low stakes is almost like a moot point. Of course you shouldn't grind 1/3 for a living... You shouldn't play any sort of LLSNL for a living in my opinion.

If you're good enough to beat live 5/10+ (which in certain areas is super ****ing easy and there's lots of places that spread live 5/10 40+ hours a week) then you can clear 100k in a year. Also, you have to be willing to adjust your schedule around the games if you want to play 30 hours+ of 5/10 in certain areas. If it runs 2 days a week but the games are 15 hours long, maybe you have to play two 15 hour shifts, or 20 hours of 5/10 and 20 hours of 2/5. Additionally, the better you get the more you realize how soft some of these games you previously thought were reg infested actually are.

If you want to play higher than 5/10 live you need to be a decent person who is fun at the table and able to make friends/connections so you get the invites to private games. Or be willing to travel.
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Old 01-30-2019, 02:23 PM   #163
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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If you want to play live poker for a living and you're consistently playing 2/5 or lower you're doing it wrong imo.

Having this discussion on live low stakes is almost like a moot point. Of course you shouldn't grind 1/3 for a living... You shouldn't play any sort of LLSNL for a living in my opinion.

If you're good enough to beat live 5/10+ (which in certain areas is super ****ing easy and there's lots of places that spread live 5/10 40+ hours a week) then you can clear 100k in a year. Also, you have to be willing to adjust your schedule around the games if you want to play 30 hours+ of 5/10 in certain areas. If it runs 2 days a week but the games are 15 hours long, maybe you have to play two 15 hour shifts, or 20 hours of 5/10 and 20 hours of 2/5. Additionally, the better you get the more you realize how soft some of these games you previously thought were reg infested actually are.

If you want to play higher than 5/10 live you need to be a decent person who is fun at the table and able to make friends/connections so you get the invites to private games. Or be willing to travel.
this whole notion of HAVING TO CLEAR 100K IS A JOKE

so what if there are plenty of jobs you can make 100k at

who cares ;you don't need 100k to live a comfortable life

if you enjoy poker, enjoy being your own boss, enjoy working when you feel like it and not working when you don't then what's wrong with 60k a year

if your point is use your brains to make more elsewhere fine
but even in LA you can live on 60K and not feel poor.


and as others rightly pointed out, spending that many hours in a casino puts you around some of the lowest forms of scum in the human race.
but so doesn't being a police officer, fireman, doctor, nurse, EMT , bartender etc...

Last edited by snowman; 01-30-2019 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 01-30-2019, 02:25 PM   #164
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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As far as who is saving and who is investing. How the f*** do you know what people are doing with their earnings? I'm sure most poker regs aren't saving wisely because the majority of all PEOPLE all over the world are terrible at saving.

Im taking money from morons who are using their expendable income on gambling versus being smart savers. If people were conservative and rational, than profitable poker wouldn't exist in the first place.
LOL, saving is ridiculous. Why would you save money when you can keep it in motion and increase your wealth by spending it? If I'm better than the rake I can make more money in poker by spending it than saving it, this is true of the real world. Do not save money, invest money. You "save" money when you clip coupons and get everything on sale and buy used stuff so you can keep more money to SPEND

what your parents told you isn't true

also, if you aren't making 100K per year in poker it's not a good existence unless you are in your early to mid 20s, it's bad for your health, it's going to be extremely important for older guys to eat right and exercise
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Old 01-30-2019, 02:33 PM   #165
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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If you want to play live poker for a living and you're consistently playing 2/5 or lower you're doing it wrong imo.

Having this discussion on live low stakes is almost like a moot point. Of course you shouldn't grind 1/3 for a living... You shouldn't play any sort of LLSNL for a living in my opinion.

If you're good enough to beat live 5/10+ (which in certain areas is super ****ing easy and there's lots of places that spread live 5/10 40+ hours a week) then you can clear 100k in a year. Also, you have to be willing to adjust your schedule around the games if you want to play 30 hours+ of 5/10 in certain areas. If it runs 2 days a week but the games are 15 hours long, maybe you have to play two 15 hour shifts, or 20 hours of 5/10 and 20 hours of 2/5. Additionally, the better you get the more you realize how soft some of these games you previously thought were reg infested actually are.

If you want to play higher than 5/10 live you need to be a decent person who is fun at the table and able to make friends/connections so you get the invites to private games. Or be willing to travel.
this

there are big games with mega fish that will put you over 100K per year but if you are the type to cry about bad beats and berate players and don't do rounds with them you can't get in, it's also fine to dump some hands to them after a big winning session, gamble with them (flip)

i got invited to one of these games and made over 20K in one night, the next time I went I purposefully dumped about 6K back, maybe they will invite me when they come back to town
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Old 01-30-2019, 02:35 PM   #166
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

60k in LA? Even after the very basics, tax, rent, health insurance, car (pretty essential in LA), I do not see how you can even build up a retirement roll, nevermind a family to support
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Old 01-30-2019, 02:50 PM   #167
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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60k in LA? Even after the very basics, tax, rent, health insurance, car (pretty essential in LA), I do not see how you can even build up a retirement roll, nevermind a family to support
It can be done. If you're trying to support a family of 5, yeah it's gonna be rough but if it's just you a comfortable life on 60K in the L.A. area is more than possible.
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Old 01-30-2019, 03:54 PM   #168
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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LOL, saving is ridiculous. Why would you save money when you can keep it in motion and increase your wealth by spending it? If I'm better than the rake I can make more money in poker by spending it than saving it, this is true of the real world. Do not save money, invest money. You "save" money when you clip coupons and get everything on sale and buy used stuff so you can keep more money to SPEND

what your parents told you isn't true

also, if you aren't making 100K per year in poker it's not a good existence unless you are in your early to mid 20s, it's bad for your health, it's going to be extremely important for older guys to eat right and exercise
In order to INVEST money, you need to have money SAVED.

I hope you didn't think I meant to keep your bankroll hidden under your mattress.

So yeah, I agree with you for the most part. Except if you advocate SPENDING money on depreciating crap like cars, overpriced clothing, and food from restaurants (in kind of sounds like you are, not sure?) then I disagree and I think you're burning money and not getting a solid return.

Last edited by bodybuilder32; 01-30-2019 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 01-30-2019, 04:00 PM   #169
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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If you want to play live poker for a living and you're consistently playing 2/5 or lower you're doing it wrong imo.

Having this discussion on live low stakes is almost like a moot point. Of course you shouldn't grind 1/3 for a living... You shouldn't play any sort of LLSNL for a living in my opinion.

If you're good enough to beat live 5/10+ (which in certain areas is super ****ing easy and there's lots of places that spread live 5/10 40+ hours a week) then you can clear 100k in a year. Also, you have to be willing to adjust your schedule around the games if you want to play 30 hours+ of 5/10 in certain areas. If it runs 2 days a week but the games are 15 hours long, maybe you have to play two 15 hour shifts, or 20 hours of 5/10 and 20 hours of 2/5. Additionally, the better you get the more you realize how soft some of these games you previously thought were reg infested actually are.

If you want to play higher than 5/10 live you need to be a decent person who is fun at the table and able to make friends/connections so you get the invites to private games. Or be willing to travel.
Good post.

I think "super f**** easy" is definitely relative. If you are heavily rolled, have a massive amount of live poker experience where you can exploit the sh*t out of live tells, are much better than your opponents strategically, have long stamina for good games, and dont go on tilt, then you are probably right.

That's a lot of things working in your favor. But 100k is still pretty sweet as a professional gambler.
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Old 01-30-2019, 05:59 PM   #170
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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Originally Posted by Jarretman View Post
If you want to play live poker for a living and you're consistently playing 2/5 or lower you're doing it wrong imo.

Having this discussion on live low stakes is almost like a moot point. Of course you shouldn't grind 1/3 for a living... You shouldn't play any sort of LLSNL for a living in my opinion.

If you're good enough to beat live 5/10+ (which in certain areas is super ****ing easy and there's lots of places that spread live 5/10 40+ hours a week) then you can clear 100k in a year. Also, you have to be willing to adjust your schedule around the games if you want to play 30 hours+ of 5/10 in certain areas. If it runs 2 days a week but the games are 15 hours long, maybe you have to play two 15 hour shifts, or 20 hours of 5/10 and 20 hours of 2/5. Additionally, the better you get the more you realize how soft some of these games you previously thought were reg infested actually are.

If you want to play higher than 5/10 live you need to be a decent person who is fun at the table and able to make friends/connections so you get the invites to private games. Or be willing to travel.
Lots of places? Define the word "lots". Id say there are very few places besides L.A or Vegas where you can play 5/10 40+ hours per week.
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Old 01-30-2019, 06:06 PM   #171
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

^ Yes the key part is being heavily rolled. If I had to give advice to a brand new poker player looking to eventually make a living playing live poker I would recommend to get a job, save as much money as you possibly can, study a lot/practice online, play 10-15 hours of live poker a week, and take super aggressive shots in soft 5 10 games. Easier said than done of course.

The reason people are saying 100k+ a year (myself included) is because most people find playing poker for a living a not so great career in terms of anything except freedom and money. You have no benefits, no pension, no raises to keep up with inflation unless you're moving up stakes (or improving your winrate I suppose), tonnes of stress, you're hanging around with people that are stereo typically not the most savvy characters, it's unhealthy to sit for 30-40 hours a week (at least at a desk job you can walk around and still be paid, or get a sit/stand desk), you're unlikely to find a mate in the poker room whereas a normal job is where a lot of people end up meeting their partners, you can have trouble getting a mortgage if you want to buy a house due to income verification (not sure how it works in the states, but in Canada poker is tax free so you have no income on file to get a mortgage).

I could list about 50 more negatives when it comes to playing poker for a living and still only 2 positives, freedom and money. So if one of those positives isn't high enough, then it wouldn't be worth it to me. There are so many other, better ways to make 60k/year with a pension, with benefits, with raises to match inflation, etc. etc. So you need to make the good money with poker to compensate for that imo.

Additionally, if you're playing poker for a living (and plan to until you retire) you need to be saving/investing for your retirement. Which can be extremely difficult for poker players who often keep their entire net worth in liquid cash, for obvious reasons. If you don't end up saving for retirement there is no pension plan for you to rely on.

tl;dr there are so many negatives associated with playing poker for a living that the positives need to outweigh the negatives, and money is one of the positives. That's why personally I don't think it's worth it unless your estimate of your winrate x your hourly x hours you will be able to put in a year = >100k (yes it's an arbitrary number)
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Old 01-30-2019, 06:08 PM   #172
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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Lots of places? Define the word "lots". Id say there are very few places besides L.A or Vegas where you can play 5/10 40+ hours per week.
Niagara Falls, Montreal, Vancouver, London UK to name a few. If you want to talk about private/underground games then there's way more I could name as well. Like I said, you have to be willing to adjust your schedule to the games if you want to play 5/10+ 40 hours a week. If they run 3 days a week you should be able to put in 40 hours.

A mix of half 2/5 and half 5/10 can still produce a very healthy wage.
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Old 01-30-2019, 08:03 PM   #173
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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Niagara Falls, Montreal, Vancouver, London UK to name a few. If you want to talk about private/underground games then there's way more I could name as well. Like I said, you have to be willing to adjust your schedule to the games if you want to play 5/10+ 40 hours a week. If they run 3 days a week you should be able to put in 40 hours.

A mix of half 2/5 and half 5/10 can still produce a very healthy wage.
Vancouver not spreading 5/T 40 hrs/week. Last I heard villa was on weekends only and not round the clock.

Re- tax free in Canada: Not if it's your primary source of income.
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Old 01-30-2019, 08:28 PM   #174
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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Niagara Falls, Montreal, Vancouver, London UK to name a few. If you want to talk about private/underground games then there's way more I could name as well. Like I said, you have to be willing to adjust your schedule to the games if you want to play 5/10+ 40 hours a week. If they run 3 days a week you should be able to put in 40 hours.

A mix of half 2/5 and half 5/10 can still produce a very healthy wage.
3 of those 4 rooms are outside the US. You cant just move to Canada or London on a whim and stay there full time. The cost of living on London is outrageous.

Who the hell would want to be in Montreal or Niagra Falls during the winter? I dont know for a fact about 5/10 in Montreal but Ive played at Casino Montreal and there wasnt even a 2/5 game the evening I was there so I think its unlikely there is 5/10 40+ hours per week.

Someone just said there is not 5/10 40 hours a week in Vancouver.

When factoring in cost of living, you could make more money playing 2/5 at Winstar in Oklahoma than playing 5/10 in a super high cost of living some place like London.

So basically Id say overall your advice is pretty bad, not too mention a very good player can make $100K playing solely 2/5 and I can state that for an absolute fact. It can be done without running around all over the place chasing 5/10 games that happen to pop up or begging to get into a private home game.
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Old 01-31-2019, 03:32 AM   #175
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Re: Is poker a dying field?

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Re- tax free in Canada: Not if it's your primary source of income.
That's not true and while technically a grey area (I am assuming you are referring to section 1.15 of the CRA tax rules) no person has been succesfully made to pay taxes on poker winnings in Canada (who fought it anyways).

Heres one that went to the supreme court where a professional online poker player sued the CRA for previous years he paid taxes on poker winnings and won:

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/fct/doc...2013fc916.html

Here's an analysis on that case:

http://www.gettaxnetpro.com/blog/Bil...al-review-566/

I'd do more research before making claims like that.
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