1/3 match the stack. The table as a whole has been really loose. By that I mean that in the four last raised pots, $25 opens have gotten 4+ callers.

Main Villain is Persian guy in his 40s who seems to be loose based on my limited observations. He was in every one of the past three raised pots and many if not all of the limped ones too. Saw him limp/call with 84s before. He's probably vpiping 60% or more. Could be closer to 100% for all I know.

Villain's stack is $465 and Hero's stack is $1700. There are two even larger stacks at the table.

Hero opens black Kings UTG+1 to $25. Villain flats MP, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 882 (pot: $100)

Check, check, Hero bets $60, Villain calls, blinds fold.

Turn: 4 (pot: $220)

Villain's stack is $380.

Hero thinks for a while and bets $115 and Villain min-raises to $230. Hero?

The min-raise on the turn feels so strong because I feel like if Villain had a pocket pair that he decided to go with he would just shove all-in.

you should not be folding under any circumstances
sry you lost this one

I woulda played it the exact same way. Turn minraise is gross, against a bad abc player he always has it here. You've seen him in a lot of pots but has he been raising or just call/folding?

If Ive seen him in 5+ pots within the last 2 orbits and hes never raised I might make a hero fold but if hes raised even one of those post flop I would ship and assume he had TT or something else weird thats not an 8.

He had been folding a lot on the flop. Haven't seen much from him postflop, so it's hard to formulate anything beyond general population reads. I hadn't seen him raise preflop once in a few hours at the table. So maybe we can label him a 60/5 or something.

Just to be clear he does have around 60 combos of 8x here: {87o+, 86s-84s, maybe 86o}.

Treating the min-raise as an effective all-in, we're getting a bit less than 3 to 1. Can we find more than 20 combos of PPs that take this line? If he had shoved, I would say yes, as he could have a decent portion of 55-77,99-JJ. But I discount these hands more heavily when he just min-raises versus a shove.

Agree that we can't fold here, but I don't love it four ways with a villain that has a lot of 8s. I would go bigger pre though, based on table observations combined with we don't want to go 4 ways + with KK. I would just try $30 to start.

It is interesting why he made his move on the turn though instead of on the flop since most bad players would be scared of the flush. I guess we just put him on quads or a fullhouse and fold?

Maybe its a call, idk tbh.

Fold, as hard as this one is. We don't beat much here.

It sucks, but I don't see how we are ever good here, unless this guy has realized that he can use his "image" to bluff? It happens.

Honestly, if you knew they'd all call $25, make it $30. Also, if he's been folding a lot on the flop, I might check the turn. If you bet the turn, it does seem as if it should be a bet/fold vs. this guy.

Playing so deep against a lot of the table it probably mostly doesn't matter too much what we do preflop (except fold). Heck, even this "bloated" pot against the deepstacks is still a very high and manageable/playable SPR of 17. However, it is unfortunately just 4 against this "shorter" Villain, who got 21+ IO preflop, so still not a great result (i.e. he can make us commit trivially postflop which ain't great if we give him good preflop IO plus position to stack us). I would limp to evaluate what kinda of stacks are in the hand before deciding to limp/reraise/sizing. But I never raise preflop OOP, so that's me.

And this is the spot we simply get ourselves into all the time, and it's a gross one. Against a guy who looks to just be attempting to hit and get paid, it's probably a fold. But if he can mix in semi-bluffs or overvalue it becomes even grosser. FWIW, if Villain hadda flatted the turn bet, we'd have about a 1/2 PSB left (are we loving life?).

ETA: We think making it $30 preflop when there are multiple *$1700+* stacks (JFC this game is deep!) at the table plus a guy who may be VIPing 100% will make a difference in number of callers? Honestly, a minraise would be better sizing (more manageable SPR if everyone flats and better chance of someone 3betting so we can 4bet).

Gsetupbetterspotspreflop,imoG

This is 1-3. Players do all kinds of stupid things that don't make sense. He could have a flush draw, or picked up a gut shot on the turn, and is trying to get a cheap river. Or he could think he can get you off overcards with a crazy min-raise. You can't, absolutely can't give him credit for an 8 at these stakes for such a small bet. I would only fold this if i saw him bet this way numerous times and it was the nuts every time.

By the way, if he has something like 66 or 99, he's drawing very thin. If he has a gs-fd combo like 65dd, he has 12 outs. Other than an 8, that is effectively his best hand possible. (Rarely does he have AA. I discount it almost completely. If he has AA, you lose some money and take a note.) He's basically worse than 4 to 1 with almost any hand not containing an 8, so i'd bet smaller ott, probably 75 and get him to call with any pair or draw.

This is a time I'd consider l/rr pre, given MW and loose nature of this table as you've described.

AP I fold turn. Don't see many passive players start bluff raising turn facing heaving action.
But if I am stereotyping, him being Persian makes this a call/shove lol

Tough one. Gotta love when the players with unlimited ranges just always seem to hit.

Ran into a similar situation last night at $1/2 NL...Black KK on btn., get 3-bet and I 4-bet....2 call....paired flop..got check raised on turn.

I called. He had it.....of course.

Am I the only one who bets more on the flop? Like, pot. Maybe even overbet it. I mean, they’re not folding pocket tens, right? They might even call with 7s.

I check flop here sometimes.Makes it easier to get called by worse on turn and I’m trying to find a way to get to showdown.

It all came down to this for me: If he wanted to min-raise as an information bet with TT or 88 he would usually make that move on the flop. Why wait until the turn when the bet will be more expensive? The check flop/raise turn line is far more attributable to an 8 in my estimation.

Anyway, it was an interesting spot for me and I do think it is far closer to a call if we've ever seen Villain make a spazzy play postflop. Really a very borderline spot IMO.

Fold and move on.