Hi all,

I was alittle torn inside with this hand. I wonder if I could have played it more properly.


Live underground 1/1.

Hero(CO):JJp


3 limpers, Hero reraise limpers to 8bb, Button reraise 3bets to 25bb.

What should Hero do? And yeah, the raise size is weird, so how much is optimal?


V(Button) bought in for about 500/600$. Played quite abit of hands this session. Unknown to Hero, V went to showdown with some great hands with alittle control cos he knows he's beat. Like QQ to KXX. But V did slowplay a hand or twice, the one I remembered was V hit KKX, which V holds AKo.

Hero, 4th time playing Live poker. Did silly stuff like raising limpers up 8bb instead of a bigger amount. And some other etiquette issues. Trying to understand how and why the moves he made online isn't really feasible in live poker. And all in all, playing weak tight. So his range in this session is really pretty nitty.

These are always player dependent for me.

In this case, you need to write down your stack size. For example, if you only have $50 in play, it's probably a snap shove. Because you can't call and then "play poker" after that, with only $25 left.

There is a lot of dispute about the value of JJ in these situations. But very many expert players believe the hand has quite a bit of value.

The raise size isn't weird. Raising to 7bb would be a pot-sized raise. Why do you seem to think it is strangely small?

OOP, I'd just fold. It's either a situation where you're way behind or flipping. The very best case BTN is 3betting TT.

Whatever it is, I'd never flat call. Any flop without a J will be a tough situation. If I was going to continue, might as well 4bet preflop to avoid going to the flop OOP.

After you fold, keep paying attention to how often BTN starts 3betting. It's okay to fold the first time and give respect, but I'd look to throw in a 4bet if BTN starts doing it too much.

Hi BadlyBeaten!

Thanks for your advise!

Yeah I think you are right, if Hero is left with 50$ LOL he can't just sit there and play poker with 25$ left. But what if Hero is 100$?

hmm I folded because I am out of position, and V went to showdown with pretty solid holdings, so I gave him credit. He doesn't 3bet much from that few hours I played with him.

And also, because JJ is really difficult to play for me post-flop in 3bet pots. If there's a overcard, I'm prolly check/folding. So it plays like a setminer kind of hand.

Hi AsianNit!

Thanks for asking. I thought so too when I first started playing these underground games. All the games I went to at different locations, those players usually limp, OR, open raise it 7bb, 8bb.

So, when I first played, I held a premium hand(can't remember what it was) I open raised it up to 4bb and the peeps on the tables looked at me with strange looks on their faces.

At first i thought they are just being overly fishy, but now I realise why I should open raise it to 8bb. It's for value. I'm not sure why the others are doing so though. But this is how I view it.

Hi FloppyFelt!

Thanks for your advise!

Yeah precisely. I folded it because I knew it definitely is going to be tough playing it preflop. But as for the 4bet, I didn't really wanted to because the 3bet seem strong and while I was thinking, the dealer called my name and V suddenly turned over to look at me with huge eyes that seem like it's going to pop out after acting nonchalant.

I'd never raise JJ pre-flop with that stack size. I'd almost never do it with any stack size. It's tempting in position, but if I think the button or blinds have any chance of getting busy, I'm happy to just over limp here.

After that we either get out-flopped, hit a set, or hold an over pair, all very easy situations to play, particularly with this stack size.

If we get raised, and especially if there is a caller or two, it's an AWESOME spot to squeeze, again, especially with these stack sizes...you're likely to get called by hands that are much worse than JJ.

lots of reads/information missing in the OP, but as a default, with what i understand are 100bb, i´m getting it in in an underground game vs a likely somewhat loose "baller" on the button who buys in for 600bb. also, pretty nice spot for him to squeeze imo.

Raise size seems standard.

Reaction to 3! depends on the effective stack size.
Short, gii.
Deep, call.
100bb, depends on V 3bet range, often a fold.

Hi Sauhund!

Thanks for your comments

I thought these are the important information that came to my mind. Prolly you could advise me on what else to add?

Hi SpexDome!

Thanks for commenting!

But I don't feel that limping with JJp is the best decision. This hand is way too strong to limp in with, and it doesn't flop hard enough to get it in post flop. It's either the overpair, which gets underpaid, or the set, which comes every 8.75 to 1 time. Or in these tables I play at, where it's normal to see 3 to even the whole table into any hand, every hand.
They definitely will hit the overpair more times then I am playing JJp by limping and then getting paid off for it. LOL

Hmm yeah, I'm still not very sure about this hand man. Those boys look cool and handsome but their knees are weak. But I think prolly I'll shove on those overly aggressive tards and fold to those tighter guys.

Hi Suited Fours!

Thanks for your advise!

How short should one get before getting it in? 50? I think I'm definitely getting it in if it's below 50bb.

If I call, what should I do OTF? try to setmine? Play for small pots? Check/calling if there's overpair and try to play V out OTT? Yeah these requires certain reads on V.

If I'm 100bb deep, I should prolly play it aggressively and really play it only when I have initiative?

I think these are right, what's your thoughts?

And also, regarding the open raise preflop, I feel the size is fine if we are playinng in a casino or stuff like that. But the blinds are pretty weird. I wonder if I should play it like 1/2?

I am not too sure about the players there though, but everyone just open raises to 8bb, even the slightly decent regs. Never really got to ask them why though, prolly should find a chance to

50bb seems about right. The deeper you are the more equity you need against his range. But, likely more importantly, the deeper you are, the tighter his gii range will be. It depends. I play occasionally in a social 25c/25c game. Never folding JJ at effective 100bb in that game because gii ranges are so wide.

Yeah, deep a call can be to setmine. maybe b/f overpairs. c/c against aggro players, definitely depends.

at 100bb, just calling is bad because you've passively put in 1/4 of your stack preflop. It's a fold or shove. If his 3! includes hands like 88 or AQ, then a shove is generally profitable.

I don't think we have the same understanding of what "overpair" means.

If we see the pot limped, one of three things will happen
1) Hit a set, at a loose table, this is money.
2) Get out flopped, at a loose table, multi-way, any A, K, or Q is our "red light" to stop betting. We can check/fold having invested 1BB with what only started as a medium strength hand.
3) We hold an OVERPAIR. That means all the cards on the flop are lower than our J's. Our hand rates heavily to be the best at the table, and we've under-repped it substantially.

With these stack sizes, there isn't enough money to go in over four rounds of betting. One or two bets is all it will take to play for stacks. So I'm not in a hurry to start jamming it in pre-flop.

And, as I mentioned, limping pre-flop is not necessarily our final action. If the button raises, and he gets a caller or two, or three, you have an easy and highly +EV shove opportunity.

HAHAHA!

Excuse me about the overpair thingy.

Just a question, would you limp this preflop too with QQp?
I feel it's hand strength is similar to JJp, but could get out flopped too.

Assuming are 100bb deep, we raise it up, and get reraised, against the V we talked about above, could we find a call and play poker postflop?




Hero(CO): QQp


8bb+25bb(3bet)+17bb(call)=50bb pot OTF

2 way pot

FLOP : Ah 2c 7s

What should we do in your opinion?

By check calling the flop, we are going to put in more then 50bb into the pot. So could we check/raise here? The range we are calling with pre flop is pretty tight, at least JJ+, AQo+.

If we check/raise, V is going to fold all his air hands and and JJ, QQ hands.




Hero(CO):QQp

And if the flop is Ts 4h 5h

If we donkbet, if V reraises us, the pot SPR is going to be more then enough for us to get it in with out 50bb stack. Or folding would do us better? V is repping something huge, KK+ I suppose with this raise.

So to say, if V's ranges includes hands 88(+?) and AQo(+?), we should 4bet all in 4x V's 3bet? Yeah 88 and AQo definitely represents V's bottom range for 3betting for value. I don't see V 3betting up a bunch, and definitely don't see him 3betting light.