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Old 01-05-2014, 04:10 PM   #1
McShoveStein
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Diamond Please analyze this line 1/2

new table, sit with 200. Early double up, table is pretty tight.

Effective stack in the beggining of this hand was $185

dealt Q10 in UTG+1 and limp ith it . 5 limpers in total

to the flop....


J108

I check. Please speak to the possibility of leading this kind of flop out of position, would checking be better than betting?

UTG+2 makes it $7 to go. Villain calls. Hero calls and everyone else lays down.

Turn 9 . Hero make his straight. Hero checks. Please help me understand if betting here would be better to define the hand. Since its limped pot and Hero wasnt the first aggressor, he checks. UTG+2 makes it $25 to go. Villain flat calls. Hero has about 140 left remaining and jams.

Please help analyze if this move was optimal to protect a made hand (vulnerable to all the other draws out there). Needless to say(not being results oriented, the check ship brutally failed to a foul deck.

BTW Villain had about 300 more or less at start of the hand
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Old 01-05-2014, 04:16 PM   #2
brojaysimpson
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

Please read the stickies and other posts to see how others in LLSNL will post hand histories as it's hard to give feedback with such little information.

What I will say is Q10s is a hand that does not play well multiway or out of position. If you're going to play this hand utg at a tight table I'd raise to whatever you think will get it heads up.

On the turn I am not check jamming, there isn't really any draw that's calling, you're mostly getting call by other Q's.
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Old 01-05-2014, 04:29 PM   #3
oh-nahhh
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

make it 8 pre

lead flop

the turn spot is whatever but you shouldn't have gotten into this situation, but prolly just lead turn

you're coolered I guess, but the situation in question isn't the main advice you need here.... you need to never ever open limp in a cash game again in your life
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Old 01-05-2014, 04:57 PM   #4
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by oh-nahhh View Post
you need to never ever open limp in a cash game again in your life
That's the advice you need to learn from this thread.
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Old 01-05-2014, 05:00 PM   #5
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by McShoveStein View Post
Effective stack in the beggining of this hand was $185
Quote:
Originally Posted by McShoveStein View Post
BTW Villain had about 300 more or less at start of the hand
Which one is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McShoveStein View Post
dealt Q10 in UTG+1 and limp ith it .
Fold pre

Quote:
Originally Posted by McShoveStein View Post
Please help me understand if betting here would be better to define the hand.
I don't know what this means. You want to tell everyone you have a straight? You're free to tell them if you want.
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Old 01-05-2014, 05:03 PM   #6
AncyentMarinere
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

This kind of hand can get you into a sticky situation out of position, workable hand in position. I'd fold this most of the time unless the table is pretty weak. If you do decide to make a move with it, definitely want to be opening and take the initiative. Lead for whatever is your standard open.

As played, you've hit the flop strong, but that board is dangerous as hell and will also have connected with a lot of the other limpers' ranges. You definitely want to lead here, I'd make a ~3/4 pot bet.

Don't get too hung-up on the fact that you weren't the first aggressor, so you just take c/c , c/shove line on this wet as hell board. If you have value, you need to lead out.

The hand has so many problems it's hard to give decent advice. Don't take this kind of line, it is only going to cause pain and suffering.
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Old 01-05-2014, 05:13 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McShoveStein View Post
new table, sit with 200. Early double up, table is pretty tight.

Effective stack in the beggining of this hand was $185
...
BTW Villain had about 300 more or less at start of the hand
200+200=400? Where's the double up...And wtf are the stack sizes?


Quote:
Originally Posted by McShoveStein View Post
dealt Q10 in UTG+1 and limp
5 limpers in total

Flop (10) : J108

I check.
UTG+2 makes it $7 to go.
Villain calls.
Hero calls and everyone else lays down.

Turn (31) 9 .
Hero checks.
UTG+2 makes it $25 to go.
Villain flat calls.
Hero jams for 145.
FYP.

Please learn how to write a hand history.

Raise pre or fold.
Flop check is w/e as played

Turn shove is terrilolbad. If you had bet any other street it wouldn't have been so bad. But limp, c/c, c/shove? That's just lighting value on fire.
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Old 01-05-2014, 05:19 PM   #8
Daddys_home
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

Never limp. You're the first in, you never limp. The hand becomes much easier to play after you raise pre.
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Old 01-05-2014, 05:44 PM   #9
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Q10s is a garbage had utg, fold pre. Don't raise, fold. You should be opening very snug utg. A range of prolly like
Aqs+, Ako, 77+. For serious.
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Old 01-05-2014, 06:38 PM   #10
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by oh-nahhh View Post
you need to never ever open limp in a cash game again in your life
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddys_home View Post
Never limp. You're the first in, you never limp.
What are you guys doing with 22-66 in EP?
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Old 01-05-2014, 06:43 PM   #11
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At a full table I fold 22-66 utg, utg+1. I never open limp, tbh.
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Old 01-05-2014, 06:44 PM   #12
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I'm not in the never limp camp. These I probably limp/call 75%, raise 20%, fold 5%.
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Old 01-05-2014, 07:28 PM   #13
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

In some cash games, limping with QTdd can work, obviously not any of the games these guys play in, but in some games they are sooo bad it's likely not a huge mistake. Especially if people are limping PF with hands as strong as JJ and QQ, many times you can outflop and felt them. But, you must already be very good at understanding how to get away from hands that are beat. That being said, if you have that kind of skill level, you are better off opening the pot for a raise and thus gaining control and building a pot which you will often take down without a hand.


As played, the question as to what to do on the turn is important, because you could have arrived in a situation much like this on the turn without the preflop action.

There are a couple considerations you should think about. To begin with, who are the guys doing the betting? If they are crazy calling stations who can't fold a low straight for any amount (There are people like this), or that will call with Two pair/sets/flush draws +pairs or small straight +FD, then shipping it isn't a bad idea because you can't be pushed off the straight when the 2s hits and a guy jams with bottom 2 pair because he thinks you're scared. Which he would be right.

Of course, any FD, 2/pair or set has less than 25% equity in the pot, so you could raise a smaller amount and if they call, they make a mistake. Of course, if you don't raise your whole stack, you have put yourself into a difficult guessing game if they both call and the river comes a spade or pairs the board. Also, a queen will make it un-fun for you if they go all in... (Doyle Brunson wrote about just calling a guy with the nut straight, because he knew the guy had the same hand, then shipping the river when a scare card hit, don't be that guy!)

Now, if they are good players, they won't call any decent raise without a queen in their hand. If they are extremely tight players, they may only call/raise with KQ, and I know a couple tight players that will fold a queen there with no re-draws... (Sounds crazy, but it's true)

Don't be afraid of over-betting especially if there are loosey goosey players who are in the pot; be afraid of even calling here if the guy doing the betting is the Rock of Gibraltar, because he definitely has you tied, tied with outs, or has you beat.

Also, the guys in the earlier posts were recommending opening preflop with a range of Aqs+, Ako, 77+. These are probably the guys who you don't want to just ship your stack against with the bare queen. They are never calling you when you are way ahead. Pick the guys who don't seem to have a range, who are calling with hands like QTs or way worse utg, ship against them and they will have plenty of calls with sets/two pairs/small straights/and flush draws.... ; )

Nice post, you seem to be developing good thoughts about the game. Asking questions is the best place to start! Good luck

I'm learning as well, so feel free to dissect my thoughts and correct me where applicable. Thanks

tl:dr
On the turn, it mainly is player dependent. Bad players need shipped over, Good players not so much.
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Old 01-05-2014, 08:14 PM   #14
Angrist
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_hood115 View Post
At a full table I fold 22-66 utg, utg+1. I never open limp, tbh.
This is lighting money on fire.

At limp happy tables with stationy players a flopped small set for $2 is a complete monster hand.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angrist View Post
This is lighting money on fire.

At limp happy tables with stationy players a flopped small set for $2 is a complete monster hand.
Cool, keep limping utg and in early position and trying to extract value from out of position.

You'll also get picked apart if you ever try to move up to more aggressive games, because you've got bad fundamentals.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:56 PM   #16
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel View Post
What are you guys doing with 22-66 in EP?
Open if table is passive. Fold if I'm likely to see a 3 bet. There is no law that I say I have to play every pocket pair. In early position, sometimes I fold them.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:59 PM   #17
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_hood115 View Post
Cool, keep limping utg and in early position and trying to extract value from out of position.

You'll also get picked apart if you ever try to move up to more aggressive games, because you've got bad fundamentals.
I didn't say open limp at a tough table, or at higher stakes against better players. I said that open limping in EP with a small PP can be worthwhile at the right tables. Tables with loose passive stations that will pay you off.
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Old 01-05-2014, 11:01 PM   #18
Shwauby
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Limp is bad, otherwise wp
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Old 01-06-2014, 12:23 AM   #19
eldiesel
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_hood115 View Post
Cool, keep limping utg and in early position and trying to extract value from out of position.

You'll also get picked apart if you ever try to move up to more aggressive games, because you've got bad fundamentals.
Or, you can not do the same thing regardless of the opponents. I never said limp 33 UTG at a 10/25 table lol.
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:52 AM   #20
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel View Post
What are you guys doing with 22-66 in EP?
open obv

yeah i open 22 utg.... maybe i shouldn't make that information public haha but i do... unless i have no momentum and i wanna tighten my image then ill fold, but i never limp, only tools open limp... if I ever see someone open limp i insta peg them as a bad player, regardless of who they are or what they look like....i guess it could be my online background and disdain for live poker talking though

Last edited by oh-nahhh; 01-06-2014 at 02:00 AM.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:07 AM   #21
McShoveStein
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Fug View Post
In some cash games, limping with QTdd can work, obviously not any of the games these guys play in, but in some games they are sooo bad it's likely not a huge mistake. Especially if people are limping PF with hands as strong as JJ and QQ, many times you can outflop and felt them. But, you must already be very good at understanding how to get away from hands that are beat. That being said, if you have that kind of skill level, you are better off opening the pot for a raise and thus gaining control and building a pot which you will often take down without a hand.


As played, the question as to what to do on the turn is important, because you could have arrived in a situation much like this on the turn without the preflop action.

There are a couple considerations you should think about. To begin with, who are the guys doing the betting? If they are crazy calling stations who can't fold a low straight for any amount (There are people like this), or that will call with Two pair/sets/flush draws +pairs or small straight +FD, then shipping it isn't a bad idea because you can't be pushed off the straight when the 2s hits and a guy jams with bottom 2 pair because he thinks you're scared. Which he would be right.

Of course, any FD, 2/pair or set has less than 25% equity in the pot, so you could raise a smaller amount and if they call, they make a mistake. Of course, if you don't raise your whole stack, you have put yourself into a difficult guessing game if they both call and the river comes a spade or pairs the board. Also, a queen will make it un-fun for you if they go all in... (Doyle Brunson wrote about just calling a guy with the nut straight, because he knew the guy had the same hand, then shipping the river when a scare card hit, don't be that guy!)

Now, if they are good players, they won't call any decent raise without a queen in their hand. If they are extremely tight players, they may only call/raise with KQ, and I know a couple tight players that will fold a queen there with no re-draws... (Sounds crazy, but it's true)

Don't be afraid of over-betting especially if there are loosey goosey players who are in the pot; be afraid of even calling here if the guy doing the betting is the Rock of Gibraltar, because he definitely has you tied, tied with outs, or has you beat.

Also, the guys in the earlier posts were recommending opening preflop with a range of Aqs+, Ako, 77+. These are probably the guys who you don't want to just ship your stack against with the bare queen. They are never calling you when you are way ahead. Pick the guys who don't seem to have a range, who are calling with hands like QTs or way worse utg, ship against them and they will have plenty of calls with sets/two pairs/small straights/and flush draws.... ; )

Nice post, you seem to be developing good thoughts about the game. Asking questions is the best place to start! Good luck

I'm learning as well, so feel free to dissect my thoughts and correct me where applicable. Thanks

tl:dr
On the turn, it mainly is player dependent. Bad players need shipped over, Good players not so much.
Thank you for this reply which is pretty much what I was looking for. Now this being said, what are the exact pitfalls of limping in EP with suited 1 gapper hands? The table was pretty soft with about 1 villain against whom i played before who was extremely loose with his routine 8-12 pre flop raises (he raised 8 with J8 off in one hand). It smashes a lot of flops, such as the case in this particular hand.Yes I could have raised pre flop and mostly likely a lead on the flop would win. I decided to play it tricky and it cost me.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:11 AM   #22
Ray Horton
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

Opening every PP UTG unless the table is super lagtarded and has a guy or guys making it 30 or 40 to go every hand.

So, rarely will I (or should you) open fold any PP, even UTG.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:19 AM   #23
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_hood115 View Post
Cool, keep limping utg and in early position and trying to extract value from out of position.

You'll also get picked apart if you ever try to move up to more aggressive games, because you've got bad fundamentals.
He's right. At LLSNL loose passive tables, I'm limping PP's all day everyday and callign reasonable raises. I have made senseless amounts of money doing this and getting paid in the thousands when I hit sets.


Passing these up is a HUGE leak in these games.
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Old 01-06-2014, 02:20 AM   #24
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by m_hood115 View Post
At a full table I fold 22-66 utg, utg+1. I never open limp, tbh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angrist View Post
This is lighting money on fire.

At limp happy tables with stationy players a flopped small set for $2 is a complete monster hand.
Wow! I open raise with these in all positions. There is sooo much money to make flopping sets on non thinkers....Even good poker players have a hard time spotting sets...especially in 1/2 when you get 6 first level thinking people calling your 6$-8$ raises...I don't think anyone should open fold any pp in any position. Ever.
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Old 01-06-2014, 03:59 AM   #25
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Re: Please analyze this line 1/2

there is debate about whether it is better to limp vs. raise. I'm in the limp camp because in my experience raising doesn't make it it any easier to get all in than limping and you save money when you miss. Pretty much no one in the know will open fold them at 1/2 and juicy 2/5 though.
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