This is technically true but there is way more value available than just flopping a flush. Flopping a flush draw (10%) is important because we have equity and can semibluff. Even a backdoor flush draw with the ace overcard gives us some equity to back up our cbets.

That said, I still usually ditch AXs in EP. Losing the kicker battle when OOP maximizes the amount you lose.

I play under 10% VPIP total from EP.

I was just watching a Poker Talk Live (LATB) video from a few months ago, where the presenter was hammering on the fact that even a back door flush draw is worth 4% equity. Those little fours of percents add up over time.

@Steve00007 I really don't think I play loose at all.. I mean aside from this huge Ax leak that I have/had. But since I'm very inexperienced, I guess I can have a bunch of these in my game. But I always saw myself as vey tight.

Any K2-K9/Q2-9/types are insta-mucks for me, even in late position unless I'm getting to see a free flop from the blinds. I will sometimes raise something like K10 suited in late position.. but I would say the only times I play anything like J10/Q10/K10 is if I'm in late position and I'm confident that I can limp and see a cheap flop (though I know limping is just generally not the best play). I am never open raising those hands in EP/MP. I would raise maybe K10 suited in LP.

I suppose I can play weak aces similarly to those hands?

@Beanfacekilla to be completely honest, i don't think its an issue with patience/discipline. I really think it was just this misunderstanding that playing most Ax hands is what I SHOULD do so I did it (though again.. this is just some misconception I formed somewhere along the line). I think I'm fairly patient.. I don't get out of line even if I'm card-dead or if I feel like I got sucked out on. I would say pre-flop, my range is similar to what you spelled out (again discounting this huge Ax leak that I had). Though I would say I open raise AJ and 88/99... and with these I proceed with a lot of caution, and don't start acting like I have the nuts when I hit top pair with AJ. Even when I get my AK/QQ or whatever it is, and I find that my opponents might have hit the flop hard, then I don't struggle too much in laying down my premium hands. I mean I would guess that I end up getting pushed off stronger hands than overvaluing my hands... and I think this is a better way for me to learn the game (for my bankroll at least).

Postflop I try not to overvalue any top pair/pair.. always try to ask myself what am I beating/is my villain ever calling/raising with worse/etc... and not try not to fall into the "omg I paired my Ace!" mode.

Again, I appreciate all the inputs guys. Think I found a huge, easy-to-fix leak in my game.

Its not. At all.

Indeed.

FWIW Ten handed, for Ax hands I open AQo+ and AJss+ from EP; AJo+ and ATss from MP and obviously wider after that. I can think of situations where I'd change that but the only that's come up so far in live play is when the table is super passive with multiway limped pots nearly every hand. Then I will overlimp Axss in MP and it would probably be OK to come in from EP as well.

Preflop is essentially solved at 100 bbs and this info is easily available. If you're the best player at the table, you can frequently deviate and know when to do so. Thank god everyone thinks they're the best player at the table.

When you see this being done, isn't the ace usually suited?
If so, the reason may be because the famous poker author Ed Miller, came out with a book entitled "The Course" recommending opening any Ax suited UTG for a raise in a typical 1/2NL game. Pg. 59. He also recommends an o/r UTG with 76s+. The reason being that they are capable of making big hands that can win big, multi-way pots that often develop in these games. So, you're going to need more than 2 callers & I would be willing to bet he's thinking 4 callers minimum.

So, the current table dynamic is going to determine whether you need to tweak your opening range in EP as he stated in the book. IMO, you are definitely not playing to flop a pair of aces with A4s vs. 5+ opponents.

Also, As4s vs. Ac4h wins 52.5% of the time, a 5% edge. So if you have say 28% equity on the flop when you're not suited, then how much more equity do you have when you flop 1 card to your suit when you're suited? Well if you have As4s vs. KK [no spade] on a 7s5h2d board, you have 33.6% equity. If you have As4c, you have 30.3% equity. 3.3% more equity just because you have the chance of runner, runner flush. If you flop two spades, then your offsuit As4c has 33.7% equity & your As4s has 55.7% equity. That's 22% more equity & a 65% increase over the offsuit hand. So, suited is a helluva' lot more valuable than offsuit.

Say the flop is 7s5h8s & you hold As4s. Now you have a flush draw & bdsd vs. KK & you have 54.7% equity. If you only had one spade, you'd only have 32.3% equity.
If there was only 1 spade on the above flop, you'd have 32.3% equity and if your A4 was not suited, you'd have 28.9% equity. A drop of 4.4% in equity.

Miller also recommends that you o/r with any pocket pair in EP. However, that's not going to work when the table dynamic is such that you will often be 3! in LP to a price that doesn't give you the opportunity to make enough when you flop a set to warrant playing them.

I would prefer calling a $15 o/r in EP than may start a chain reaction, than be the opener. Say you have a player who has a tight o/r range UTG & he makes it $15 and you call with 55. You're doing it because you believe you'll get a few more callers with their 87s etc., & you'll be on your way to making 15x your preflop investment should you flop a set. That's provided the stacks are big enough.

Then there are posters on 2+2 who claim that they've played with Miller in games & they have never seen him play the range he recommends in his book "The Course." However, it was in Vegas & from what I understand, the 2/5NL games are not soft, multi-way games. Idk.

I can say that I know for a fact that Miller's opening ranges for EP was at one time much tighter than what he recommends in "The Course." I can also testify to the fact that those people willing to gamble in EP with 76s+ & A4s+ and are running good, win big. I've seen it time and again. However, when they don't run well at a table, they move, and sometimes they go home stuck 1.2k. Other times they win 2k+.

I also don't think they just play the opening range in Miller's book & go by a set of rules postflop as to how they play their hand. I think they're more advanced players who have a solid understanding of their opponent's ranges & tendencies. I'd also say that at least 1/2 of the ones I see playing like this in the 1/2NL games I'm at, normally play 2/5NL & are just waiting for a seat in a 2/5NL game.

The book is available on Amazon for $43.75. However, I am willing to bet any winning player would recommend that a beginner stick to a tight opening range in EP [as Miller recommended years ago] & concentrate on learning how to extract/maximize your profits in the later positions, i.e., Button, CO, HJ & Steal seats.

I have become acquainted with a high stakes limit Hold 'Em player in MD & I asked him why he prefers limit over NL when he does so freakin' well in limit. He says there are usually many more questions you need to ask yourself before acting in NL than limit. So in limit, he can play many more hours before he begins to burn out mentally.

If that's true, then it would make sense that a beginning NL player should learn how to play the game one piece at a time.

A tight, solid opening range [recommended by Miller] can be found here:
http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/a...standards.html

It was written in 2007 & is tight, but it will keep you out of trouble during the learning process because you won't be playing much in EP. Therefore, you will have position on your opponents the vast majority of the time.

I fold AJo- in EP (and sometimes even in MP).

With limpers in the pot, I fold A9o- on the Button (let alone everywhere else).

I don't complete A9o- in the SB.

Non premimum Ax hands are absolute garbage due to their RIO and should be dumped at almost every opportunity (the exception perhaps being to steal blinds in LP). This goes even moreso for noobish players who don't play as well postflop.

Gtightisright,imoG

I can "essentially" guarantee that you are wrong about this.

Also, OP, the hands you are talking about are super easy folds. To give you some perspective, in NLHT&P, their preflop strategy is so tight from EP that they say to only open-raise QQ+ and AK. Not even AQ and not even JJ. (I don't follow this strategy, but I know why I'm opening wider. You don't seem to yet, as a beginner.)

@CallMeVernon Yeah, I'm definitely seeing that any A10 and under hand is an easy muck from EP.

I might still consider playing them if they suited, depending on my table.. but in general, I will insta-muck those hands from now on.

My games are also getting to the point where I'm *considering* just open folding small pairs (i.e. 66-) in EP. Have to admit, I haven't actually done that yet... but at some tables I'm thinking it is probably best.

GsighG

I did this online (before BF), but I feel like the live player is so much worse on average, that I want to take every chance possible to setmine.

One thing I can do at many tables is raise small, which nobody ever seems to adjust to at 1-2/1-3, and this gets me a cheap-ish shot at hitting my set.

Definitely. Players rarely 3bet even when you make a 3-4xBB raise. You get see a flop for cheap and build a bigger pot to play for stacks. Win-win.

+2

I drool in late posn when this happens.

You're right. To solve preflop you'd need to solve the game. I should have said "approximately" solved.

Yes, agree with this. Some of Ed Miller's advice in The Course seems a bit shaky. Raising with Ax in EP? What if an Ace flops? Good luck playing that. I like easier post flop decisions. On pocket pairs, love playing these, but Stack to bet ratio, if calling, should be 15 to 1 for both myself and bettor. Mutli pot much better.

I like this too, sort of puts a limit on betting. I play at Foxwoods, and don't get 3 bet too often at $1/2. I go with Harrington on this. If I'm not first to act, my stack, and the bettor's has to be 15 x the bet to call to see flop. I sometimes bend this. But if bettor has $100 and bets $12-15 pre flop, and no other callers, probably not a good call. I don't like to get below $150 stack in $1/2, ever, so a $10 bet/call, is okay. Sometimes UTG or UTG+1, I will bet small raise, like $8, hopefully not getting raised, to see cheapish set mining flop. I like to raise late, like CO or button with small pocket pairs, as often, if flop is really scary, like AKT, I will pass on C bet with this hand, and look to get free turn card. On small pocket pairs, I don't always C bet, esp if like 3 others in hand with wet flop.

I hate A9o, but in the SB for $1 vs 3-4 limpers plus the BB? That's like 10 to 1 odds. Why not spend $1? Say you play K8o for $1 and 2 kings flop, or two 8's, or K8. This certainly happens more than 1 in 100 times and you can win $100 or more. To spend $1, I almost always do this. Even 72.

Playing really bad hands is a leak, even if your getting great odds. The problem here is simple. On most flops your just check/folding and when your not it is often a win small pot/lose big pot situation. When you have 72o and the flop comes 779 there are lots of hands you can win one bet against. However, if villain is willing to move all in they will usually have 7X or better also.

When in these situations where you can complete cheaply out of the SB getting ridiculous odds look for hands that can flop the nuts or near nut hands. Even getting 10-1 or better it isn't worth playing K8o but KJo will usually be worth seeing the flop. Not just because there are more ways KJo can make a strong hand but because there are more you can get paid on and fewer where you end up paying better hands.