We're going to have a hand ~33% of all flops, why are you trying to build large pots OOP?




Our range isn't only TT. There are many times we want JJ to call. What happens when we have AQ/AA here? JJ folding is a disaster. If your overall strategy is to bet smaller, then the times we have AK/AJ/TT, we get away from the hand cheaper and the many less times we have AQ/AA/KK, we keep them in the hand.




so Vs are folding 99 and 88 but calling JJ? They're effectively the same hand. 88 is actually a better hand vs {KK+, AQ} because it has more backdoor equity!





Money is made in LLSNL by our opponents making mistakes. Betting larger earlier allows them to fold hands that were ahead of and call hands that we're behind. Also, Vs tend to play every street worse than the previous, so why are we forcing them out on the cheaper betting rounds?



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Ultimately, it seems to me that a lot of people don't know why they are betting what they are betting, they just do it because "it's standard." Those that have general reasons for betting certain amounts don't seem to mathematically understand why they're doing it.

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1. We are not building a pot but simply maintaining pre flop aggression. As already mentioned the cbet is a one and done unless improved.

2. Hero wants JJ to fold when holding TT. Ofc, we don’t want JJ to fold when we hold QQ+.

3. From a combinatorics perspective 88 is not the same as JJ. When holding 88, there are 12 more combos (TT/99) the opponent has to consider as part of the Hero c-betting range.

4. Are $6-$7 pre-flop raises part of the strategy you are advocating? If not, there is an inconsistency.

Thanks for fighting the good fight Johnny OTS

Yes, fairly standard now online. Live, the small bets on flop, are very confusing to most.
That is fine. Because betting turn as bluff, is easy to defend.

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So wouldn't the proper adjustment be to bet $30 otf for value and the check/call the turn with hands like KQ?

Once someone value owns themselves once or twice on plays like that and the table sees it, people are rarely pounding me IP without premium holdings.

So now I'm getting to showdown cheaper with worse holdings because everyone is afraid to value own themselves vs me. I can also run stop and goes with better holdings and bluffs. By the time Vs have any clue what I'm doing, I'm leaving the table

And this all stems from betting less otf in general

It's going to become glaringly obvious that you're playing straight forward to some people when you 3! Give up on one hand and 3! barrel on another. And regardless what you plan on doing in later streets, you're still building a pot OOP.

So you're betting big when we have TT to get JJ to fold. When we have a hand that has JJ crushed what are we doing? Betting small? We can't be betting big because we already concluded he's folding when we bet big. Doesn't seem like a great plan to me.

Now if the opposite is true, then you're betting big and JJ is going to call regardless, so you're just throwing away $ with TT

And the combos of TT/99 are dwarfed by the number of combos of AK/AJ, which make up a much larger portion of our 3! range because TT/99 will be flatted from the blinds more often. We never want to 3!/fold TT to a 4!, but we kind of have to, yet we are rarely 3!/folding AK 100bb


From later positions, yes, in some instances. Again, it's all dependent on Vs yet to act

So, in THIS hand, you bet $30 (or $20 as Avaritia suggests) and check/call the turn?

I think b/f turn, x/f river is probably the best line. Obviously changes if our hand improves. Probably x/f an A/K turn.

You should be betting small on this flop, with your entire range. This isn't a board where you are going to have a lot of bluffs/semibluffs (maybe AK), so your betting range here is going to be very value heavy. At the same time, villain is going to have a narrow range of hands he can continue with. All of this means that our bet size should be smaller.

As far as villain floating us and taking it away on a later street, I'm not worried about that because a) 50 year old man in a live 1/2 game is unlikely to be floating us a ton here, and b) even if he does, I'm not worried about being exploited because my range here isn't TT, it also includes JJ+ and AQ.

This is read dependent. Making easy adjustments to player types.

Vs, sticky aggro player. We can check/call all day long. Vs a passive player. We can make exploitative fold.

Vs unkown. I am actually okay calling also. They will be betting all Q's for value. But have alot of bluffs in there range also. By check/calling we are leaving there range super wide.

Of which we are beating a good portion.
But if our villain isn't floating AK,AJ, smaller pocket pairs. It is straight forward fold

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In this specific hand I wouldn't be in this situation because 10 minutes into a session I'm not 3! a LP open from the blinds with TT unless the guy is < 30 and has PFR ~60% hands, and even then I might still only call pre because of a card rush

I would then call a cbet otf and evaluated turn/river

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But because we're in this situation, I'll answer that too.

We have no info other than V is middle aged (not an old man ....)

I would expect him to play straight forward post flop in a 3! Pot. Even if he floats with JJ, I would expect him to bet it infrequently, so I would cbet flop and X/f unimproved hands. I might bet K turns as a bluff because 3! calling ranges will be more Ax heavy, so if he has a hand like QJ, he may release on a K

Good to know, because the whole time I've been referring to this hand

Why not 3!. We have hand that benefits greatly by 3 betting.

First we haven't played a hand. So they don't have any reads. There is $26 in pot. We can likely win pot with our raise.

Easy fold if we get 4 bet. Likely win hand on cbet.

We don't need guys to have PFR of 60%, to make it profitable. 30 year old age group, baffles me. Most 30-40 year old males, open fairly wide from LP (now if it where EP raise, you may have a case)







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I try not to do things that put me in bad situations for the ~1st hour of play. Being OOP with a middle pocket pair in a 3! Pot that I'm the aggressor on is basically the definition of bad situation. I just like to have a clearer read on people before doing things like this. I would gladly call pre, X/c flop, X/eval turn and river

Standard passive line.

Not most EV

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bigger pre plz

as played I'd prob bet ~50 OTF, planning to fold to a raise and check/fold turn if called, if turn checks through then c/c'ing or jamming river

I think his line is optimal vs unknowns.

In a game of incomplete information, those who have the most information tend to win. That's the whole reason why we consider ourselves "Poker players" and not rec fish, because we are able to gather better information than our opponents and use that information to our advantage.

Playing TT as a 3! without any other reads on the players is playing like you're flying in the dark. You may get lucky sometimes and win a large pot, but that doesn't mean you're playing it optimally.

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Why pick TT as the hand to do this with? TT had SD value, I don't know if we need to turn it into a bluff vs an unknown on this board.

Sure, it might work most of the time, but you could have been doing that with basically ATC - and I'm assuming you're not recommending doing this with ATC.

I like Johnny and avaritia line of small flop bet to keep their calling ranges wider, then you can evaluate on turn whether to barrel or not. But I doubt many people are going to be bluffing you here, and if they do, they often aren't 2 barreling it.

If someone DOES do that, then you have a "player" at the table and you need to make some adjustments to how you're going to play.

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You have top 5% hand, equity wise.

You are OOP, with hand that flop very cold/hot.

We are facing a button open. We are ahead of his range.

With intiative, we can at least bluff alot of the flops that we don't like, with a profitable success rate.

For flops we like. We have now built larger pot. So we are going to get extra value postflop.

If he folds preflop, or flop, our hand realley benefits from denying him his equity.

Call, Call, line allows our opponents to realize their equity. Which is a huge benefit for them. And costs us EV.





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Hand is a very clear 3b pre

I certainly agree with all of your points. However, as I stated earlier, I like to be more aggressive when I have more information. I would 3b this pre perhaps after I find out what type of player the button is, but before then, I'd like to take the route with the least variance - or perhaps stated another way, I'd like to find out more information with the least amount of money.

We probably have different styles of playing and I think that's fine too. I just prefer to keep my 3b range to something like QQ+/AK vs unknowns, maybe JJ/AQ sometimes..but hey that's just nitty me.



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Betting flop for value, not as a bluff. I actually made a mistake and thought there was a bit more in stacks when I suggested $50. I would actually bet 40-45 here with any hand I wanted to bet. When I looked at it before going to bed last night I thought betting that size left exactly pot behind in stacks which would be awkward but that's not the case.

Betting a range of {TP+, bluffs} would mean we're either going to be extremely bluff weighted when we bet or checking flop and just giving up money way too often with a relatively weak and capped range after 3betting pre. TT is a nice hand to bet for value - we can get called by 7xs, 5xs, some worse PP's, straight draws, as well as protect our equity. When we check turn V is going to check back a lot of those hands due to SDV so we don't need to worry about getting bluffed a ton and get to use the SDV of our own hand in turn, so it's not like we're turning it into a bluff.

About betting smaller, I guess the logic is to just never check and bet small with our entire range? But we're not 3betting a linear range pre here so we don't have enough of a range advantage to support it. To me it just seems like it's incorrect, sets up difficult turn play for the majority of our range and is kind of just burning money if we're betting every hand we 3b pre. I would have plenty of hands that I'd check flop with here, so betting bigger when I do bet makes sense.

This isn't a board texture where you'll have a lot of bluffs, so you should bet on the smaller size. A larger size can support more bluffs in your range.

What range are you 3betting pre? This isn't true for me at least. This isn't the easiest board to have connected with..

Against a button open TT+/AQ+ and occasionally some other broadway hands (mix strategy between calling and raising them). If button wasn't in his 50s I'd also 3bet some Axs hands and some suited connectors.

What isn't true? Not sure what you're getting at there. In a game theory sense, the less bluff hands compared to value hands you have in your range, the smaller your bet size should be. On this board texture, our betting range is going to be heavily weighted towards value, so our bet size should be on the smaller size.