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Old 03-13-2019, 01:09 PM   #26
MarshMan114
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post

I dont think id start with adding J8s/especially 43s to my LP 3b bluff range vs CO/MP. There are much better hands than those that you can choose from. Imo there would have to be very, very good reasons for you to even consider 3betting these hands in the first play in these positions. If you’re 3b hands like J8s, you’ll have hands a looot of hands in your 3b range and probably are overbluffing. IP you can toy around and experimentwith 3-betting much more, you’ll probably have to learn for yourself and see what works and what doesnt, but be especially careful with 3b too lite oop
This was more in response to Avaritia's comment about adding a singular hand as a bluff hand. Not that I have this linear range that includes 34s to AQs. It was my understanding that his comment is to have your button vs MP/LP range (for me maybe , 1010+, AJs+, KQs) and then throw in one (or how many?) more bluff hand so you have a methodical and random selection instead of going by intuition. (He used 68s as his example)

What constitutes a good 'starter bluff' hand then? I thought the point was to have a hand that is not playable under most circumstances to begin with.
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Old 03-13-2019, 01:54 PM   #27
Minatorr
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

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Originally Posted by MarshMan114 View Post
This was more in response to Avaritia's comment about adding a singular hand as a bluff hand. Not that I have this linear range that includes 34s to AQs. It was my understanding that his comment is to have your button vs MP/LP range (for me maybe , 1010+, AJs+, KQs) and then throw in one (or how many?) more bluff hand so you have a methodical and random selection instead of going by intuition. (He used 68s as his example)

What constitutes a good 'starter bluff' hand then? I thought the point was to have a hand that is not playable under most circumstances to begin with.
One way you can do is expand your 3b range you just gave me by a few %. Soi you can add A10s/KJs/88+. Another is to expand it based on V’s tendency and how deep you are. If he plays fit or fold post you can use more polar hands and if you’re 200bb deep or very deep you probably want to be adding some more polar hands that can make the nuts and cooler and stack overpairs/TP type of hands (only if you think he’s not a nit post and/or cant fold overpairs). E.g SCs and suited wheel aces.

I’m not exactly sure where you heard the last part from, but another way to constitute a good starter bluff is to pick a hand that is at the top of your folding range range or is too “weak” to flat/bottom of your flatting range, yet has good playability post and 3b from there instead of flat calling or folding. E.g. 54s from BB vs BTN open, K2s-K5s BB vs SB rfi, etc. Kinda similar to what you’re saying but it’s a little different imo. Kinda like a hand you’re “supposed” to play so yo come in for a 3b instead of calling/folding
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:23 PM   #28
Ragequit99
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

Minatorr: Are blockers still thought to be a significant attribute we're looking for in light-3bet hands? I.e. AXs/KXs > SC/S1G?

Or are you looking for a more even mix of hands with blockers and hands with playability?
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:36 PM   #29
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

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Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
Minatorr: Are blockers still thought to be a significant attribute we're looking for in light-3bet hands? I.e. AXs/KXs > SC/S1G?

Or are you looking for a more even mix of hands with blockers and hands with playability?
Really hard to say as a blanket statement, I personally think suited wheel aces are vastly overrated and against many opponents is kind of a torch since they’ll defend most if not all suited Ax pre/A10o+. So if you 3b A2s/A3s 100% freq in that spot you are going to be in a world of pain. For suited wheel aces 3b i mostly just use A4s/A5s as they are a little more playable and sometimes lol beat A2s/A3s or chop post as people dont 4b those anywhere near as much as they should, but even then I don’t usually use them and elect to use just A8s+ instead say SB vs BTN and BTN vs CO. I usually only 3b A2s-A5s in the spots where it probably has higher EV than just flatting like BB vs SB open, BB vs BTN open, maybe BB vs CO, and we obv arent folding lol. S1G imo should rarely be 3b except in dynamics like BB vs SB, BB vs BTN, and occasionally BTN vs CO otherwise you’re bluffing too much in that spot.

100bb deep i try to mostly going linear w/ good blockers and good playability, maybe 140bb+ deep i’ll start to add more polar hands since we can stack/cooler TP/sets/overpairs. A problem with going too linear when deep is that you dont really make disguised hands and a lot of your strong hands are fairly “obvious”, but 100-120bb deep poker the pot is already so large it doesnt matter cuz in these spots when you flop TP or a good draw you’re just mostly going with it. In spots like BTN vs CO and BB vs SB tho i have a very wide 3b frequency and it includes both polar hands w/ playability and linear hands with strong blockers/playability at any stack depth. We just have greater FE overall pre, and if we get called it’s not the end of the world since we also have more FE post otf and can pot control easier. When OOP the IP player can just put so much pressure on your marginal holdings, and a lot of times you can end up making pretty bad calls that could otherwise be avoided if you had position.

Last edited by Minatorr; 03-13-2019 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 03:00 PM   #30
Ragequit99
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

Thanks Minatorr, it's been a while since I played online - good to get a view from someone who still puts in some hours. I think I'm going to review my live 3bet ranges after this thread.
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:12 PM   #31
Minatorr
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

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Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
Thanks Minatorr, it's been a while since I played online - good to get a view from someone who still puts in some hours. I think I'm going to review my live 3bet ranges after this thread.
No problem. I wouldn't say I'm currently putting in hours, but I intend on coming back in the future lol. Just busy with undergrad/work atm, would like to go back to live as well.
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:20 PM   #32
Avaritia
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Personally for me, my squeezing range is tighter than my 3b range. I think this is also supposed to be true in theory but dont quote on me that.
This is very solid thinking right here. Literally no one gets this.
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:50 PM   #33
KID777777
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

So Minatorr / Ava you would suggest a development of a squeeze range for each position, very tight OOP, looser IP, but always lower than a normal 3b range in that position HU?
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Old 03-13-2019, 09:25 PM   #34
Avaritia
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

It’s really complex. Mina has already given a lot of good points.

I would just break 3bet range into 3-4 groups. EP, MP, BTN, blinds.

Play around with equilab or any other visual tool that helps you understand what you are actually doing.

Base EP 3bet range is like QQ+/AKo. If you find yourself in a situation where it should be looser (wide opener) then you expand that range. JJ+/ATs or whatever. If you find yourself in a situation where it should be tighter (super tight omc opens utg)) then you shrink base range to like KK/AKs or whatever. You should know what hands you are 3betting (your 3bet range) before you look at your cards.

Do the same thing for base mp. And so on.

The 86s was just a way of showing op how you can add a few crazy combos without hurting much of the equity of your overall range.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
400,679,136 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
JJ+,AK,8x6x49.38% 192,118,63211,496,300
QQ50.62% 197,064,20411,496,300

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
359,583,840 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
JJ+,AK52.63% 183,588,54011,350,536
QQ47.37% 164,644,76411,350,536

You shouldn’t get carried away with this. It should be more of the expansion/contraction from base. This is especially true in live poker where people call too much. We want a linear 3bet range, not polarized, and less concerned with blockers. Because we get called a lot, we want hands that flop well.

Last edited by Avaritia; 03-13-2019 at 09:31 PM.
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