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Old 03-12-2019, 05:33 PM   #1
MarshMan114
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Playing too Aggressive?

Felt like things were clicking today and I think I was seeing some good spots to be aggressive. Do you go for aggressive plays at every opportunity and then adjust if/when the players adjust?

Or do you just pick and choose the better spots and not Ďannoyí people with an overly aggressive playing style?

For example, standard open all day is 20-30. When someone opens for 10-15 itís always a weaker hand or small PP and they are just trying to build a pot. Do you auto raise with your whole calling range until they stop or turn over a premium?

Or I happened to have QQ and AA in the blinds and obviously 3 bet a late raiser. But an orbit later it folds to the button and he raises 20. I have 78o in the SB and know heís weak and I feel like I should 3 bet but donít Ďbecause Iíve done it too much lately and this is a fold pre handí (He later showed 910o so my read was pretty good)

I know this is super room/table/player dependent but Iím mostly talking about rec players. I also have LAG envy and am looking for ways to win more small pots.
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:43 PM   #2
XtraScratch8
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

For me, this kind of thing tends to be session dependent.
If things are coming easy and I’m winning with and without showdown often I’ll usually try to take it a step further and totally run the table over.
If I’m card dead, never winning showdown pots, etc. this kind of aggression usually doesn’t work well at all.
The tricky part about playing this way is finding the right spots to keep up the aggression with air, and the right spots to totally shut down.
In the right circumstances, you can really head **** with people when you get aggressive with weird hands, but that’s not really where the bread and butter is at in LLSNL.
It’s just a fringe benefit that a thinking player can make work for them when things are really rolling.
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:32 PM   #3
Ragequit99
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

It's player dependent. If you're lucky enough to find someone who will fold too much then exploit away till they adjust but try not to be so obvious that they (or anyone else) catch on too quickly.

You've got to balance between taking a bunch of pots off the cautious players quickly vs the risk of alerting them or pissing them off so much they don't like playing you. If they're at all regular taking maximum $$$ off them over the longer term becomes important and you might want to adopt a subtler stealing strategy for that purpose.

However, if there are any particularly strong players, particularly to your left, I wouldn't get too out of line. I'd try to fly under their radar and would certainly avoid messing with their pots too often.

I'm personally no longer sitting down with the intention of "running over the table" as I find that kind of ego driven session isn't conducive to good decision making on my part at least!
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Old 03-12-2019, 09:20 PM   #4
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. It can become a very slippery slope and become difficult to manage. In reality very few villains will be so blatantly exploited and not adjust. I know many good players who torch $ because they look to exploit but end up getting way too far out of line and justify it in the name of balance/explo. In reality ime they are likely just getting way out of line and spewing hard.

Don't have lag envy unless your postflop game is very good. It's much more complicated than recognizing a small sizing pfr to explo and 3! any 2 because you think someone will fold because they are capped.
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:26 PM   #5
Avaritia
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

The thing is when you randomly “decide” to play back at people you almost always end up torching a lot of money.



What you do must always be dictated by your range. That means that you can bluff with certain hands...not in certain spots. Even a hand as crazy as 86s. But it must be a constructed part of your range. Meaning, your CO vs MP 3bet range is TT+/AJs+/86s.

So it’s not every time MP opens and you are bored in the cutoff or you think he’s fos or you want to make a play. It’s every time you look down at TT or better, AJs or better, or 86s. That’s when you 3b. That’s how you have a mechanical approach to the game and keep yourself disciplined.
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:53 PM   #6
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

This just blew my mind. I’ll have questions but I’m letting it sink in first.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:01 AM   #7
Minatorr
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
The thing is when you randomly “decide” to play back at people you almost always end up torching a lot of money.



What you do must always be dictated by your range. That means that you can bluff with certain hands...not in certain spots. Even a hand as crazy as 86s. But it must be a constructed part of your range. Meaning, your CO vs MP 3bet range is TT+/AJs+/86s.

So it’s not every time MP opens and you are bored in the cutoff or you think he’s fos or you want to make a play. It’s every time you look down at TT or better, AJs or better, or 86s. That’s when you 3b. That’s how you have a mechanical approach to the game and keep yourself disciplined.
EVERY live player needs to read this. You don't just decide to 3b random hands that aren't standard 3-bets pre in spots that look "reasonable" to do so. Unless you have very strong reasons to believe the opener has a 75% ft3b or the collective ft3b of the callers is 70%+, you shouldn't be 3-betting/squeezing 65o/74o/102s/J4s/etc for any reason. Probably almost every live player's leak imho, and a big one at that. This is one of the many reasons why Daniel gets wrecked in high-stakes online games. He doesn't have his ranges constructed properly.

Look up the (I believe) 2018 WSOP final hand where BB 3b Q9o vs the BTN open and spewed off the title lol. I dont doubt he's a good player, but if he had his ranges constructed probably instead of picking random hands to do random **** with, there was a good chance he would have won.

Ofc it is fine to deviate from your constructed ranges when you have an extremely solid reason for doing so, and it is within reason. 3-betting 87o SB vs BTN here is not within reason (i.e. you are WAY overbluffing), nor does it seem like you have a very solid reason for doing so.

If there were top 5-8 golden advices for live regs to improve their game, this would definitely make it up there. It's a shame that this post will be buried and forgotten though.

Last edited by Minatorr; 03-13-2019 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:09 AM   #8
Minatorr
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshMan114 View Post
Felt like things were clicking today and I think I was seeing some good spots to be aggressive. Do you go for aggressive plays at every opportunity and then adjust if/when the players adjust?

Or do you just pick and choose the better spots and not Ďannoyí people with an overly aggressive playing style?

For example, standard open all day is 20-30. When someone opens for 10-15 itís always a weaker hand or small PP and they are just trying to build a pot. Do you auto raise with your whole calling range until they stop or turn over a premium?

Or I happened to have QQ and AA in the blinds and obviously 3 bet a late raiser. But an orbit later it folds to the button and he raises 20. I have 78o in the SB and know heís weak and I feel like I should 3 bet but donít Ďbecause Iíve done it too much lately and this is a fold pre handí (He later showed 910o so my read was pretty good)

I know this is super room/table/player dependent but Iím mostly talking about rec players. I also have LAG envy and am looking for ways to win more small pots.
Your future 3-bets have much less fold equity than your first one, especially if you 3b them again right after. So 3-betting 87o the 2nd time when you already 3b him earlier with a premium is much spewier than 3-betting 87o if you just had the read he was weak.

Also, I wouldn't put too much stock into that read. A BTN RFI has a lot of trash in it from a reg, so it's pretty likely he didn't have much anyway. But he's more likely to defend more marginal hands and possibly 4b bluff if you 3b him earlier, further reducing your EV of 3-betting 87o from the SB. A SB vs BTN standard 3b range is already 16-20%, don't start spewing harder by adding hands like 87o to it.
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:01 AM   #9
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshMan114 View Post
Felt like things were clicking today and I think I was seeing some good spots to be aggressive. Do you go for aggressive plays at every opportunity and then adjust if/when the players adjust?
I start out relatively tight and passive and adjust my aggression as needed. This has the benefit of establishing a tight table image so that when I become more aggressive, then my bluffs have a better chance of succeeding.

I don't have LAG envy. I do my best work trapping LAGs, so why would I want to copy the players I exploit the most? I personally don't enjoy playing a lot of hands, so I have no desire to try to run over the table.
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:21 AM   #10
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

Range based play is the best base strategy for sure but you are going to have a higher winrate if you can switch to exploitative mode as often as possible.

In my experience errors occur not because I'm going outside my standard ranges per se. Rather I make big mistakes when I assume I know how to exploit a particular player/table and then it becomes clear rapidly (and expensively!) that I don't know.

Hubris is the thing to avoid - not exploitative play.
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:36 AM   #11
Minatorr
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

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Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
Range based play is the best base strategy for sure but you are going to have a higher winrate if you can switch to exploitative mode as often as possible.

In my experience errors occur not because I'm going outside my standard ranges per se. Rather I make big mistakes when I assume I know how to exploit a particular player/table and then it becomes clear rapidly (and expensively!) that I don't know.

Hubris is the thing to avoid - not exploitative play.
Maybe I made it unclear, but you can have a range-based play even if you are playing exploitatively (which if you aren't doing at live and are too rigid to gto/balance, you're leaking a lot of $$). i.e. your ranges are constructed such that it performs well against the population tendency (calling too much/folding too little), and includes a much lower frequency of 3-barrel bluffs, lower than "standard" frequency of 3b since people open too tight and thus defend too much vs the 3b, etc etc. once this range/"base" range is constructed, you can make slight deviations based on who you are playing to exploit them but in general drastic deviations get you into very gray territory where you can definitely start spewing off and end up owning yourself instead of exploiting the other person. when you make extreme and further deviations from this when you don't have a very good reason/aren't warranted to is when it becomes a big problem.

i do agree avoiding exploitative play is very bad; it's the bread and butter of live poker.

Last edited by Minatorr; 03-13-2019 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:50 AM   #12
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

^ yeah I agree there is a distinct difference between:

1) adjusting your ranges to exploit the table dynamics and...

2) Adjusting your play on and ad-hoc hand-by-hand basis to target one specific player you think you can exploit.

In my view (1) should be our goal 100% of the time while (2) should only be done when we're confident we have read our target accurately AND it's not going to put our attempts at (1) way out of whack.

E.g. we could have a really great read on a specific villain that he folds way too much in certain spots but if the table dynamic is such that pots are most often very multiway and the other players are very sticky it would be a mistake to try to force the player specific exploit by attempting to isolate and then bluff our target. Reason being is the table dynamics dictate our base ranges be adjusted exploitatively towards value betting. Removing/reducing our bluffs is the exploit in this table dynamic.
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Old 03-13-2019, 04:54 AM   #13
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

So does this not exploit number of callers or villain tendencies when deciding to 3b

Minatorr, Ava curious to how you have methodically constructed your ranges and esp your selection of "bluff hands"

Have you developed something like the below
EP vs EP
MP vs EP
LP vs EP
Blinds vs EP

And repeat for MP, LP opens?? Or go into every single position- raiser and caller
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Old 03-13-2019, 06:14 AM   #14
Minatorr
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

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Originally Posted by KID777777 View Post
So does this not exploit number of callers or villain tendencies when deciding to 3b

Minatorr, Ava curious to how you have methodically constructed your ranges and esp your selection of "bluff hands"

Have you developed something like the below
EP vs EP
MP vs EP
LP vs EP
Blinds vs EP

And repeat for MP, LP opens?? Or go into every single position- raiser and caller
Well I have a more or less constructed/“standard” 3b range from each position vs a certain position, then if I know a V’s tendency i either slightly adjust it upward or downward. I very rarely make drastic deviations. Generally vs EP (6-max) with zero reads i 3b pretty tight, even OTB. 6-max i would 3b something like 88+, A10s+, KQs, KJs, AQo+. Blinds vs EP is just strictly for value, i dont want to mess around vs a strong range without a strong holding oop. So probably AQo+, 1010+, AJs+ from SB and from BB AQo+, JJ+. Yes it’s nitty but imo 3b bluffing BB/SB vs unknown UTG raise is pretty spewy, and since I play hudless/anon fast-fold primarily online idgaf about being balanced per se in this spot.

Just in general I 3b tighter vs EP raises, 3b even tighter from the blinds vs MP/EP raises, 3b at a much much higher frequency IP (ie CO/especially OTB and BB vs SB), and 3b at a high frequency BB/SB vs BTN opens. I dont go too crazy with 3-betting OOP though or 3-betting in general with “random” hands and way overbluffing (like 3b A2o vs BTN open lol that was terrible) even if I have reads on a guy on regular speed tables, learned that the hard way by spewing quite a # of stacks in my experimental phase.

I’d say some of the fastest ways to spew off stacks is to 3b OOP with trashy hands. At least if you 3b trash BB vs SB, which my 3b freq is very high probably 20-30% depending on the player, you can pot control IP and have easier bluffs/folds. If you don’t believe me you can try it, haha.

Last edited by Minatorr; 03-13-2019 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 07:14 AM   #15
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

OP... ultimately I think you should not be frightened of experimenting.... and failing. Sounds bad, I know, but how else are you supposed to get better at the game, then trying it on, and seeing what happens? That's the mindset I have towards poker ATM. Experiment, fail, learn, repeat.

As for your specific example - I don't know if you have enough of a read on your opponent to know if he will fold his range. I think the fact he showed you T9o has got to you a little, but don't worry about it. How deep were you guys anyway? He may have flat called your 3! anyway, and then you would have been OOP with a weak holding. Gross. If you had been on the button, and villain was in the CO then I think you would have a much better case for a 3!.

I 3! a guy recently with J6s. He had been raising to wide PF, and eventually I punished him. I had a tight image, though, and I was in position. He thought for a while and ended up folding.
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:53 AM   #16
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshMan114 View Post
Felt like things were clicking today and I think I was seeing some good spots to be aggressive. Do you go for aggressive plays at every opportunity and then adjust if/when the players adjust?
Is the table letting you run over them or are you just running good? I had a session last night where my raises where getting no respect but I either whiffed or hit the flop hard. In that sort of situation you can't open up your range and may need to tighten it up a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshMan114 View Post
Or do you just pick and choose the better spots and not Ďannoyí people with an overly aggressive playing style?
I'm only worried about annoying people when I'm afraid it might drive a particularly bad player from the table. Even then it's only avoiding marginal situations. Against a spewy player I know has been getting annoyed at people picking off his bluffs I might fold a 2nd+ pair in a situation I felt was slightly +EV to hero call but I'm still not folding/flatting AA preflop just because I'm worried he might leave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshMan114 View Post
For example, standard open all day is 20-30. When someone opens for 10-15 itís always a weaker hand or small PP and they are just trying to build a pot. Do you auto raise with your whole calling range until they stop or turn over a premium?
I'm going to exploit that knowledge but that doesn't always mean a raise. I still have to consider possible action after me so there might still be some hands I call with. And from LP I might call anyways if it's going to be heads up and take advantage of have a good read on their range. Plus, raising every hand will give away the game too quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshMan114 View Post
Or I happened to have QQ and AA in the blinds and obviously 3 bet a late raiser. But an orbit later it folds to the button and he raises 20. I have 78o in the SB and know heís weak and I feel like I should 3 bet but donít Ďbecause Iíve done it too much lately and this is a fold pre handí (He later showed 910o so my read was pretty good)
This is a really live read situation because you have to be concerned that villain will play back at you and call/reraise just because he is a little tilted. And you have to be careful not to get carried away. Screwing up once in a 3 bet pot can cost you the profits from a lot of little bluffs. But knowing when you can do that and how often is one of the important skills for a LAG.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:20 AM   #17
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Well I have a more or less constructed/ďstandardĒ 3b range from each position vs a certain position, then if I know a Vís tendency i either slightly adjust it upward or downward. I very rarely make drastic deviations. Generally vs EP (6-max) with zero reads i 3b pretty tight, even OTB. 6-max i would 3b something like 88+, A10s+, KQs, KJs, AQo+. Blinds vs EP is just strictly for value, i dont want to mess around vs a strong range without a strong holding oop. So probably AQo+, 1010+, AJs+ from SB and from BB AQo+, JJ+. Yes itís nitty but imo 3b bluffing BB/SB vs unknown UTG raise is pretty spewy, and since I play hudless/anon fast-fold primarily online idgaf about being balanced per se in this spot.

Just in general I 3b tighter vs EP raises, 3b even tighter from the blinds vs MP/EP raises, 3b at a much much higher frequency IP (ie CO/especially OTB and BB vs SB), and 3b at a high frequency BB/SB vs BTN opens. I dont go too crazy with 3-betting OOP though or 3-betting in general with ďrandomĒ hands and way overbluffing (like 3b A2o vs BTN open lol that was terrible) even if I have reads on a guy on regular speed tables, learned that the hard way by spewing quite a # of stacks in my experimental phase.

Iíd say some of the fastest ways to spew off stacks is to 3b OOP with trashy hands. At least if you 3b trash BB vs SB, which my 3b freq is very high probably 20-30% depending on the player, you can pot control IP and have easier bluffs/folds. If you donít believe me you can try it, haha.
This is great stuff, thanks Minatorr. I have always struggled in constructing the bottom of my 3! range from all positions and knowing if/when to deviate at all from that. Maybe it is just as easy as picking one or two hands (like 8s6s, 9s7s) and that is it. Obv this is all game flow dependent, but I need to be better at range construction overall and not just do it on the fly as that generally leads to spew on my part.
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Old 03-13-2019, 10:50 AM   #18
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

If you're memory isn't great (like mine) you might struggle to hold set ranges for different positions Vs other positions in your head in the heat of battle.

Personally I find it easier to have a general purpose 3betting range in mind and then add or subtract value and bluff hands according to the situation.

A range of ranges if you like.

So IP and against foldy opponents I use a polarised range between [KK+ A5s-A3s] up to [TT+ AQ AJs KQs ATs-A2s T9s-54s 33-22]

OOP or vs sticky opponents I'd use a value only range between [QQ+ AK] and [88+ AJ+ KQ+ ATs KJs QJs]

I'm adjusting on the fly within those ranges of ranges depending on opponent's range, my expectations of opponent's style, my image and who else is in the hand.

We've all got to work with what we've got and the only way I could remember specific ranges is if I had them written down in front of me - which isn't so good live!
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:21 AM   #19
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

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Originally Posted by shorn7 View Post
This is great stuff, thanks Minatorr. I have always struggled in constructing the bottom of my 3! range from all positions and knowing if/when to deviate at all from that. Maybe it is just as easy as picking one or two hands (like 8s6s, 9s7s) and that is it. Obv this is all game flow dependent, but I need to be better at range construction overall and not just do it on the fly as that generally leads to spew on my part.
Thanks Minatorr, is that your squeezing range as well?

That's the thing in live poker where there are MW pots, I might see a spot where there is a loose opener, and string of callers and I have a playable hand IP. Say J9s. If this hand is not part of my 3b range am I spewing by attacking a spot like this?
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Old 03-13-2019, 11:28 AM   #20
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
The thing is when you randomly ďdecideĒ to play back at people you almost always end up torching a lot of money.



What you do must always be dictated by your range. That means that you can bluff with certain hands...not in certain spots. Even a hand as crazy as 86s. But it must be a constructed part of your range. Meaning, your CO vs MP 3bet range is TT+/AJs+/86s.

So itís not every time MP opens and you are bored in the cutoff or you think heís fos or you want to make a play. Itís every time you look down at TT or better, AJs or better, or 86s. Thatís when you 3b. Thatís how you have a mechanical approach to the game and keep yourself disciplined.
Again, this was super insightful for me. So a few follow up questions and thoughts:

You never want your 3bet range to include good calling candidates, right? (I think I asked this once before in another thread). So if 22-55 is in my late position limping range for obvious cheap/multiway play I don't want to move any of those hands into my 3bet-bluff category?

I know at 2/5 you are introducing more balance/bluffs than 1/2, but it is still a very heavily weighted value game. Any thoughts on how many bluff hands to introduce to any given range? I like Minotarr saying blinds vs EP is zero bluffs and all value so as you open up your range what are the most bluff hands you will have (button vs late position)?

Let's say I elect J8s and 34s to be in my 3bet BTN vs MP/LP bluff range. I've never seen a HH where someone starts with 'Well I 3bet with 34s because it was in my button bluff range and then...' Won't that get the standard, 'lol, fold pre' response? I think at the end of the day this will take some experimenting, but I'm trying not to torch money in a big pot if I can help it.

I understand there is no exact process and it takes table dynamics/reads/board structure (i.e. playing poker) to win, but I am generally a tight player and don't start a hand with a 4 street bluff in mind.

Marsh
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:12 PM   #21
Minatorr
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

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Originally Posted by KID777777 View Post
Thanks Minatorr, is that your squeezing range as well?

That's the thing in live poker where there are MW pots, I might see a spot where there is a loose opener, and string of callers and I have a playable hand IP. Say J9s. If this hand is not part of my 3b range am I spewing by attacking a spot like this?
Personally for me, my squeezing range is tighter than my 3b range. I think this is also supposed to be true in theory but dont quote on me that. When there are multiple people in the hand, the burden of defending is shared by everyone and thus what usually ends up happening is that it doesnt get through as often as when someone RFI and you just 3b, for a multitude of reasons. People dont like folding, they might cold-call “strong hands” or overcall hands that probably should have been 3b pre like A10s/AQo/99/1010 and not want to fold IP or even OOP, etc. Not all situations are the same but this is just my observation, on average. And so my squeezing range also tends to be more linear as well. I mostly save my polar 3b for specifically BB vs SB, BTN vs CO as we can get away with this more, altho i still 3b linear as well. These spots are just easier to abuse since oop player offen just gives up pre/post than if they were IP. When you 3b/squeeze oop you just generally have less FE since everyone thinks they can outplay you postflop IP, which isnt wrong. In 3b pots its super easy to make big mistakes OOP no matter how good you are.

The spot seems ok for a squeeze as long as stacks arent unreasonable, ie everyone is short, and you think it’ll get through a decent amount. Just be careful with which hands you choose and that you dont go too overboard and end up squeezing J6s or something along the lines of that which has way less playability than J9s, or choose hands in such a way that imply you have say a 20-30% squeeze range in this spot (ie 64s). It’s just something you’ll have to experiment with and see for yourself, it’s hard giving blanket statements. But yeah since you are IP it probably wont be terrible, but if you try this from the SB/BB it’s most likely going to be a huge torch

Last edited by Minatorr; 03-13-2019 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:15 PM   #22
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

As I see it, the main point of having a 3! bluff open in your range is to give yourself more board coverage. So, having 6-8s included in your A-J+/10’s+ range means that you’re still capable of nailing a 2-6-8 or a 4-5-7 board when you are the 3! aggressor pre. Of course, you can still likely take away some pots on the 2-J-Q type flops too.
The thing that’s really important here is that low stakes players main leak is that they call too much. IMO this type of range adjustment is best saved for only the more capable thinking players in your pool and you might just torch money against the wrong people if you keep whiffing flops on the light inclusion to your 3! range.
This is why I’m working on adding something similar to this to my game, but it has a few slightly different prerequisites.

I think the hardest thing to work on and get really great at doing is learning the correct time to shut down when you’re playing in this more aggro way. There will be times when you’ve fired two bullets with equity and you whiff the river, but it’s $300 and you have no way to win except to fire the third bullet.
The hardest part is getting so good at board/hand/V reading that you pick the best times to fire the third bullet and the best times to shut down and give up.

(I imagine Ava will have more insightful things to say about the light inclusion to a 3! range)
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:30 PM   #23
Minatorr
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshMan114 View Post
Again, this was super insightful for me. So a few follow up questions and thoughts:

You never want your 3bet range to include good calling candidates, right? (I think I asked this once before in another thread). So if 22-55 is in my late position limping range for obvious cheap/multiway play I don't want to move any of those hands into my 3bet-bluff category?

I know at 2/5 you are introducing more balance/bluffs than 1/2, but it is still a very heavily weighted value game. Any thoughts on how many bluff hands to introduce to any given range? I like Minotarr saying blinds vs EP is zero bluffs and all value so as you open up your range what are the most bluff hands you will have (button vs late position)?

Let's say I elect J8s and 34s to be in my 3bet BTN vs MP/LP bluff range. I've never seen a HH where someone starts with 'Well I 3bet with 34s because it was in my button bluff range and then...' Won't that get the standard, 'lol, fold pre' response? I think at the end of the day this will take some experimenting, but I'm trying not to torch money in a big pot if I can help it.

I understand there is no exact process and it takes table dynamics/reads/board structure (i.e. playing poker) to win, but I am generally a tight player and don't start a hand with a 4 street bluff in mind.

Marsh
Depends on what you mean by good calling hand. Some hands dont become “good” calling hands in certain positions or a hand is a good calling hand but is also good enough to 3b and probably has higher +EV. E.g. KQo should probably be a mixed frequency of flat and 3b BB vs BTN and BB vs SB, adjusted downwards or upwards based on V. Suited broadways can also be 3b for value as long as V doesnt 4b wide enough for bluff or value, which is almost everyone even online.

Depends on how you wanna construct your ranges preflop but for me BTN vs CO looks something like A4s-A5s, A9s+, KQo+, AJo+, 77+, 76s-KQs, KJs, and a few other hands like suited gappers. I dont have a cold-call range here specifically, although that’s an adjustment that has to be made for live.

I dont think id start with adding J8s/especially 43s to my LP 3b bluff range vs CO/MP. There are much better hands than those that you can choose from. Imo there would have to be very, very good reasons for you to even consider 3betting these hands in the first play in these positions. If you’re 3b hands like J8s, you’ll have hands a looot of hands in your 3b range and probably are overbluffing. IP you can toy around and experimentwith 3-betting much more, you’ll probably have to learn for yourself and see what works and what doesnt, but be especially careful with 3b too lite oop
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:50 PM   #24
XtraScratch8
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Join Date: Jan 2019
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

Yeah, I agree with Minatorr on J-8s and 4-3s not being the best choices for adding to your 3! range.
It’s also important to note that it’s really not worth adding this kind of play to your arsenal until you’re 200+ bb’s deep, and even then as QuadJ said it can sometimes just blow away most of the profits you’ve made on smaller bluffs during the session.
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:58 PM   #25
El Barbero
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Join Date: May 2008
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Re: Playing too Aggressive?

So in general I'm frequently the most agro person in the games I play, and it's been that way my entire poker life.

That being said this is really good advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
The thing is when you randomly ďdecideĒ to play back at people you almost always end up torching a lot of money.



What you do must always be dictated by your range. That means that you can bluff with certain hands...not in certain spots. Even a hand as crazy as 86s. But it must be a constructed part of your range. Meaning, your CO vs MP 3bet range is TT+/AJs+/86s.

So itís not every time MP opens and you are bored in the cutoff or you think heís fos or you want to make a play. Itís every time you look down at TT or better, AJs or better, or 86s. Thatís when you 3b. Thatís how you have a mechanical approach to the game and keep yourself disciplined.

I'm not just dumb aggressive (I hope), I'll fold to bad players making plays I might be able to exploit when I'm out of my range.

That being said, I generally prefer to annoy people with my aggression. It makes me more money when people think I'm some dumb agro spewtard. So typically I'll play it up.

Example last game I played has some really weak passive players, they we're always commenting on me not being nice because I'd come in for a raise or I'd raise their limps. So it got to a point where I would just say "here comes the jerk again" as I was throwing in a raise pre.

Note that I only want my aggressive poker play to annoy them, when I can combine that aggression with a nice personable attitude people just like sending stacks of chips my way. When I'm in a bad mood and not being "fun" my aggressive play seems to work against me.
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