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Playing Middle Pairs in Position after a Raise? Playing Middle Pairs in Position after a Raise?

03-05-2015 , 08:36 PM
By middle pairs I am specifically referring to 77-TT.

Unless someone is especially loose, I elect to call an early position raise with a middle pair if I am getting the proper odds to set mine.

The decision becomes more complex when someone raises in middle or late position and I have a middle pair.

More often then not I play tight and usually get credit for raises, yet should I be calling or 3-betting when facing a raise ahead of me?

Perhaps a solid compromise is 3 betting when the raise comes from the high jack or cut off, and calling raises that come before the highjack. Another compromise would be calling with 77 and 88, while 3-betting with 99-TT.

I am aware that this type of play is dependent on the opponent, so I am not going to 3-bet someone that is really tight. Likewise I am more inclined to 3-bet loose aggressive players. In the absent of the players tendencies, or against opponents that are neither really tight or loose, what is generally the best line to take giving the both players have a stack large enough to fold after a 3-bet?
Playing Middle Pairs in Position after a Raise? Quote
03-05-2015 , 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dog_Poker
By middle pairs I am specifically referring to 77-TT.

Unless someone is especially loose, I elect to call an early position raise with a middle pair if I am getting the proper odds to set mine.

The decision becomes more complex when someone raises in middle or late position and I have a middle pair.

More often then not I play tight and usually get credit for raises, yet should I be calling or 3-betting when facing a raise ahead of me?
It depends on the villain. Does he play a very static EP range? Are we trying to take down dead money, or are we making a pure value bet? Does he have enough Ax in his EP range that he's willing to call and c/f a missed flop? How fast is his going to play his JJ+ post flop as an overpair (and what % of his range do they make up)?

This is a tougher spot than most people realize. Playing fit-or-fold set mining will bleed you dry over the course of a session, and this is a pretty huge leak I see at LLSNL (and one I'm guilty of myself, especially if I'm on boredom tilt). If your image is tight and respected, it's pretty steady money to raise these hands and scope pre-flop until villains adjust. Low variance may be boring, but it pays.

Quote:
Perhaps a solid compromise is 3 betting when the raise comes from the high jack or cut off, and calling raises that come before the highjack. Another compromise would be calling with 77 and 88, while 3-betting with 99-TT.

I am aware that this type of play is dependent on the opponent, so I am not going to 3-bet someone that is really tight. Likewise I am more inclined to 3-bet loose aggressive players. In the absent of the players tendencies, or against opponents that are neither really tight or loose, what is generally the best line to take giving the both players have a stack large enough to fold after a 3-bet?
If LP is 3 betting into a EP raise and an MP caller, just fold. If he's continually 3 betting your MP open, you'll need to adjust but I think letting go of 77-99 are the safe play. You can 4 bet/jam TT-JJ. In live play, it's pretty easy to l/c from MP, and it's much easier to play overall.
Playing Middle Pairs in Position after a Raise? Quote
03-05-2015 , 11:19 PM
kb coolman wrote a good response. If you are playing in a weak game (usually 1/2 only), calling with only the goal of set mining is OK. Not good, but OK. In a tougher game (which can also occur at 1/2), you won't be profitable set mining. The players will realize that TP is a below average hand that wins at showdown. If you're oop, they'll often check the turn, which means you have to bet into them on the river. If you bet big, they'll fold. If you bet smaller, you won't get paid off.

You need to come up with a strategy to win even if you miss your set to make this profitable. It is villain dependent and beyond discussing in a single thread.
Playing Middle Pairs in Position after a Raise? Quote
03-06-2015 , 10:32 AM
venice is right on here. plus rarely are you really getting the proper odds to set mine only with a hand.
Playing Middle Pairs in Position after a Raise? Quote
03-06-2015 , 05:41 PM
Isn't this where the 15x rule applies. Like if someone raises to $10 pre you have to have at least $150 effective stack to profitably set mine?
Playing Middle Pairs in Position after a Raise? Quote
03-06-2015 , 05:49 PM
Thanks for the responses guys. In tougher games I tend to 3-bet in position because people are able to get away from top pair or OP. In weaker games I look to set mine if villain has roughly 15x of the initial raise behind as states. Thanks for the response, just trying to get some input.
Playing Middle Pairs in Position after a Raise? Quote

      
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