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Old 08-26-2015, 09:15 AM   #26
johnnyBuz
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Re: Playing KQo

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Originally Posted by eldiesel View Post
You can raise with it from any position, the important thing is that the sizing can't be so big that you fold out worse Kx/Qx. If you're going to do that you're better off folding.
If we have to adjust our sizing based on the strength of our hand (a tell), don't you think we would be better off just not playing it from that position?

I hate adjusting my size (not sure if leak or not), but to anyone paying attention, they would know VERY QUICKLY what a smaller raise size from you meant.
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Old 08-26-2015, 09:43 AM   #27
Midswat
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Re: Playing KQo

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Originally Posted by ZuneIt View Post
I prefer KT over KQ because the T is the key card to making both Broadway & a K hi str8.
I always play KQ against your K10. We always hit the K on the flop. You get your 10 on the turn though.

Every. Single. Time.
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Old 08-26-2015, 09:47 AM   #28
AsianNit
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Re: Playing KQo

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
If we have to adjust our sizing based on the strength of our hand (a tell), don't you think we would be better off just not playing it from that position?

I hate adjusting my size (not sure if leak or not), but to anyone paying attention, they would know VERY QUICKLY what a smaller raise size from you meant.
Adjusting our sizing isn't a problem against players who don't recognize what we're doing. I also prefer to raise smaller with my stronger hands anyways.
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Old 08-26-2015, 10:16 AM   #29
Playbig2000
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Re: Playing KQo

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Originally Posted by AsianNit View Post
Adjusting our sizing isn't a problem against players who don't recognize what we're doing. I also prefer to raise smaller with my stronger hands anyways.
this isn't really a good strategy because even with your stronger hands, do you really want 5 callers on a hand that has the potential to lose a lot of chips?

Bet sizing pre flop should never be based on our hand, it should only be based on the table (how much it will take to get it heads up), our position, and the number of limps before us.

Anyone who opens with KQ pre with the goal of hoping to flop top pair and getting a weaker King or Queen to call us down has the totally opposite mind set that they should have to be a good winning player.

We should already be assuming, even before we raise, that we're not going to flop anything at all and what our plan will be based on who called us, and we will have to use our handreading skills to read what our opponent is holding and whether we should be giving it up post flop or tripple barrel bluffing our way out. It's nice when once in a blue moon we do flop two pair or an OESD but that is only the icing on the cake.
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:05 AM   #30
AbqDave
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Re: Playing KQo

Playing for stacks is a pretty good strategy, but as AsianNit says, we don't have to get villain's entire stack right now. You can get their stack a little at a time. KQo in general is a good hand to play small pots with, to chip away at those stacks, but you need a compliant villain and a compliant table.

Don't like it from oop much. I"m kind of down on raising weak hands from EP these days, trying to push people around from OOP is just too aggro and spewy for me. YMMV, I'm just not that good. Rarely encounter a table at 1/2 or 2/5 that is so weak and passive I can get away with that kind of stuff.

I will limp speculative hands from EP if
- Stacks are deep
- Table is passive, rarely raises pre (including limp-raising, KQo is a good hand if you like to get squeezed)
- My hand is worth calling a small raise with anyway.

A hand worth limp/calling with pre needs a lot of leverage. Needs the potential to turn into a big hand you can throw some money at, and KQo hardly ever will.

I could see how KQo would have utility against people who will pay any price to chase draws, where any pair is likely to be a winner at the end. Even K-high has some SDV against people like this. KQ isn't much worse than AK against somebody like this, especially if they like playing Kxs or Qxs. If this is the plan, I like a raise pre, because it sets me up to take advantage of people who tend to lose their nerve OTT. If you're prudent about your cbets and turn barrels, you can make money. But this sort of stuff goes down a lot better IP. Among other things, you can at least see who you are going to be in the hand with before you start throwing money into the pot.

IP is a different matter, KQo is as good a hand as any to do the pfr/cbet/take-it-down routine, but make no mistake about it, it's a bluff with a backup plan. Gotta be at the right table, with tight players to your left and one or two players to your right who like to see the flop, but play fit-or-fold afterwards.

You don't always get that kind of table at 1/2, and even if you do, you gotta be mindful of the mood at the table.

People will react one of two ways.
- By trying to trap you OTF with a check-raise. This is fine, they can't possibly win with this strategy. But remember, the passive-aggressive traits that make people want to check-raise also make them want to want to smooth-call and gleefully watch you bash your own brains in. You don't want to be OOP against people like this.
-More commonly, the fish will gang up against you. It's like they send some secret signal, "let's all call his raise and see a flop, one of us will come up with something." (No one player can win of course, but I guess the first order of business is to chase you away from the table, then they can go back to having fun with each other.) You gotta be careful with your aggression once this happens, although in all fairness, again, you could say the same about AKo, and KQo isn't much worse.

At any rate, that's the main problem with KQo at your average 1/2 table: it doesn't play well multi-way, and these games tend to go multiway a lot. Think about it, if you open-raise KQo from early position, and get four or five callers, you're thinking "I'm dead." Or at least you should be thinking that.

So. Don't like open raising KQo from early position, don't much like limping with it either, although both are very tempting at times. IP? Bombs away, just stop and look at the board and look who is in the hand with you before you auto-cbet.

Last edited by AbqDave; 08-26-2015 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 08-26-2015, 03:21 PM   #31
ZuneIt
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Re: Playing KQo

Add on to AbqDave's comments:

If you have AT with 8 players left to act, there is a 22.8% chance someone has a bigger kicker. Utg there is a 25.2% chance. Since you don't hold an ace, it's gotta' be higher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker_...old_'em%29

Even in Miller's "The Course" where he has you opening with 14% of all starting hands down to the CO, KQo is not included. I don't subscribe to his opening philosophy, as I open with only 10% UTG & UTG+1, but still, here's an opening range from a "pro" who doesn't recommend KQo.

The one point that AbqDave made that should be bolded is:

At any rate, that's the main problem with KQo at your average 1/2 table: it doesn't play well multi-way, and these games tend to go multiway a lot. Think about it, if you open-raise KQo from early position, and get four or five callers, you're thinking "I'm dead." Or at least you should be thinking that.
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Old 08-26-2015, 03:45 PM   #32
gobbledygeek
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Re: Playing KQo

My default is to fold in EP, often fold in MP if stacks behind are loose and tricky / open if stacks are ABC, typically raise in LP after limpers unless table is very loose and I'm unlikely to thin field (where I'll overlimp, but this is rare), and typically always folding to a raise.

Gnitlife4everG
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Old 08-26-2015, 04:49 PM   #33
eldiesel
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Re: Playing KQo

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
If we have to adjust our sizing based on the strength of our hand (a tell), don't you think we would be better off just not playing it from that position?

I hate adjusting my size (not sure if leak or not), but to anyone paying attention, they would know VERY QUICKLY what a smaller raise size from you meant.
I see raises to $7 all day then a raise to $18 and it still goes 4-way and everyone's shocked when the OR rolls AA. Poor table selection if people are paying that much attention.

But I said if you don't want to do that, fold. You can't raise KQ to 6x UTG and the only Kx that doesn't fold is AK.
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