Well, today I played an almost perfect session. I am proud of how I played almost every hand. But, I lost 2.5 buyins ($450). I lost $200 w/KK vs AA, lost $150 w/QQ vs slow-playing AA. But, I would say I lost the most money getting bad beat.

Thinking back on it, I know I would have been up if I bet more aggressively. For example, when I flopped T2P, I bet 2/3 the pot with 2 other players in the hand so I could get some calls, and of course the turn made a flush and I had to fold to a big bet. To survive 2-3 & 3-5 NL, I am thinking it might be better to take down the pot right on the flop by betting the pot or more, instead of risking it to extract more chips from drawers.

I know it may sound dumb, but it really would reduce the variance. I played 21 hours this week, and I'm only up $11.

That would be called fish poker.

I love how your post adds no value and is completely irrelevant. LOL!

If I have the best hand pre-flop, and I raise. Then, I have the best hand post-flop, and I bet the pot. What is going on in your head to think that I'm playing "fish-poker". If anything, this would be ANTI-fish poker. You know? Stopping the fish from drawing to their strait or flush. LOL!

I'm not saying it's the right way to play. I'm just spinning ideas.

It's more like raising 6xbb w/AA preflop and getting 1 or no callers vs. raising 4xbb to get 2 or more callers. There's a risk/reward tradeoff.

My post sums up the problem with your thought process - it's fish poker. You sound like the old guy that bets $100 into a $40 pot any time there's a flush draw out there because he doesn't want to get outdrawn. Then he proudly shows his aces that he's been waiting on for 4 hours and takes down the $40, wowzers, nice play old dude! You really showed those crafty internet kids who's the boss! Grab some more coffee and wait another 4 hours for some more aces. Can't be raising with queens or kings now, there's always an ace on that dang flop.

Your goal should be to maximize value against other players' entire range, not just to protect your two pair because there's a draw out there. Also, losing with two pair versus a flush draw that got there is not a bad beat.

Hard to say as fairly little info..
KK.. standard setup; QQ.. depends how it went down.. most likely standard..

T2P .. depends.. sounds like a fairly standard play ..

no bad beat here.. 1 setup .. one where you got played and one standard poker.

betting over a pot with T2P would be a questionable..

21h ~breakeven.. small sample .. making overbets as standard value/protection line >> +11 goes down to +-0 IMHO

Yeah I was playing with an old man who would raise pre to 12$ in 1/2 no matter how many limpers, and shoves every flop everytime... He picked up 4 pots before getting stacked. He lost 3 buy ins because people kept sucking out in him

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This is a tidy statement and also a difficult concept to learn.

OP your post smacks of "I had poor results and I can't handle it." This may not be the case, but that is what it sounds like. Try doing some thinking about where the money comes from in NLHE. And when posting in this forum post well thought out hands with specific strategy questions. Then be open to criticism. You will benefit greatly (at no charge) if you can do that.

A guy last night was burning buy-ins in a 1/2 I was playing. Same type of play. The one that sticks out for me was he raises preflop and gets 3-bet. Call. Flop AAx. He shoves for more than the pot. Opponent folds. Guy shows A3. lol

That only works against bad opponents. If villains are half decent they will react by playing tighter against you, set mining you more and playing fewer draws, so you quickly end up winning small pots when nobody calls and loosing big ones when you do get called.

OP, this is results orientated thinking. I hope by now that you have realized this and are just waiting for this thread to die.

If not, you are forgetting that the goal of poker isn't to win the most pots. It is to win the most money. When you play a way that reduces you winnings, you're going in the wrong direction.

I think there is a discussion to be had about the pros/cons of slight reductions in EV that greatly reduce variance. But this OP post aint it.

Small ball poker?

I love how any "non-standard" post is considered "results-oriented" regardless. If you guys didn't know, playing live NL in SoCal is just dodging bad beats. With the ridiculous blind structures, people become pot committed much, much, more easily than your standard game.

When you get 2 to 4 people calling your 2/3 pot bet on the flop, then obviously your equity goes down. What would you rather have? Take the pot on the flop, or 3 callers and 44% equity?

After playing over 1K hours and finding 75% of my losses are from bad-beats, thinking of a way to decrease the bad-beats seems like a valid thought. Heads up, I'm fine. But with 2+ people, I find I get sucked out more often than not.

You do not want to protect vs draws. You want draws to call. But you can't pay them off when they hit. So no, its a negative EV strategy.

In poker 70-80% of your losses will be bad beats. But those are the same guys we value bet and charge draws. Pretty much make's up a big part of our win rate.

Question: So let's say you have AKs in BB. You get 6 limpers and raise to 5xBB. 4 players call. Flop comes AT2 with flush draw (not your suit). How much do you bet? I'm thinking maybe pot-size with so many players.

3 callers and 44% equity ainec. Crunch the numbers and you'll see why.

U mean in a 1/2 game u raise to 10$ after 6 limpers when u r in the BB?

Trust me 75% of your losses are not bad beats

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What ever sizing you think they will call with worse.

Preflop depends on the game structure. If I'm in 1/3 game I'm raising to 20$, 3/5 would raise to 30$.

Otf, probably go 15bbs. Then bigger ott if I'm called. Its all about ranging your opponent.

I don't play 1/2. I play 3-5 & 2-3. LOL! Why is 5xbb on BB bad at a loose table? You can check w/AKs, but trust me. You're style of play is not the best. That's probably why you're playing 1/2.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-5-nl-1381874/

Didn't notice this was u, peace out
/wasteoftime

If you don't know why raising AKs to 5x is bad after six limpers then you either haven't played enough live poker or have some serious sizing leaks in your game. If 6 people limp to me and I have AKs in SB in making it 10-12x

OTF, you go 15BB? You had 4 callers PF, so the pot is 25BBs. 2 players have no range (any 2 cards), and the other two have standard ranges but 1 of them likely called just for odds.

Sums up bad players who also happen to be the one's your targeting.
I get at what you are driving OP, but I think it does sound somewhat results oriented. On the flop you have top 2-pair and they have a FD. While the price is right for them to call almost any bet they are still way behind. Charge them for their draws, but you are losing value by pricing them out. Almost nobody bluff-raises a river at 2/5, so it is an easy bet-fold if a likely flush comes in.

You need to do some math.

As a general rule, having 3 callers and 44% equity is going to be just about as profitable as having a lot more equity HU.

You didn't mention pot sizes or anything, but let's say you raised to $8 preflop in a 1/2 game and got 3 callers. Let's say that puts $28 in the pot on the flop (my guess at socal rake).

You have 44% equity in $28, which is $12.32.

Now say you raise to $8 and get 1 caller, and that puts $15 in the pot. Let's say you have 80% equity; that's $12 in equity, a few cents less than the 4 way pot scenario.

Mathematically, there's no reason to prefer the second spot to the 4 way pot. The reason people prefer the second spot is because when they win it 8 times out of 10, they falsely assume that it is more profitable than winning the 4 way pot 4.4 times out of 10. People probably also prefer it because it's easier to play.

A second explanation for why your "defensive poker" idea is doomed to wreck your WR is that it violates Sklansky's fundamental theorem of poker, which is: "Every time you play your cards in the same way you would play them if you could see his cards, you profit. Every time he plays his cards as if he could see yours, he profits." By forcing people to fold rather than call a bet that gives them incorrect odds to draw, you're forcing your opponents to play correctly against you. You're forcing them to make only small preflop mistakes.

Of course, if your opponents will routinely chase draws when you overbet the pot, then overbet away; you're missing value not overbetting if that's the case. But that's not the usual case, nor is it the usual reason we see players making ridiculous overbet on the flop. The usual thinking is what WJ94 described: the fish-think that "I don't want to get drawn out on" that also shows up in your OP.

To be clear, when you have a made hand and your opponents likely are drawing, the correct mindset is to bet enough to give them incorrect drawing odds, and then to hope they call.

Then you get no callers. I wanted 1-2 callers which is why I made it 5xbb. 12xBB is overkill, and you only get called by TT+, when you're likely beat.