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Playing big aces OOP Playing big aces OOP

08-08-2015 , 05:46 PM
The more I play poker, the more I realize how much I hate playing OOP. Yet when dealt hands like AQ or AK in the blinds, I feel conflicted how to play them. As a standard rule, it seems correct to raise these hands preflop for value. Yet in live 1/2 and 2/5 games there is a lot of limping with hands that should be raising. Still, a big raise pre will take down the blinds or usually get one caller. One in a while there are multiple callers, and in wild games, which are rare, there are always multiple callers. In these situations, I am less likely to raise my big aces because it doesn't accomplish much but build the pot for someone who spikes the flop.

But in standard games, I prefer to raise something like $17 in a 1/2 game or like $35-$40 in 2/5 games over multiple limpers. Like I said, well over half the time everyone just folds, or we get one call - cbet and win that half the time too. Once in a while we win a big pot, and once in a while we lose one. So I think overall it is a profitable strategy. However, I am wondering how to make it MORE profitable and to reduce variance (yes I know it is our friend).

Some players argue for not bloating pot preflop OOP, especially with unmade hands. I would agree, but then I wonder if its every correct to just complete/check with our big Aces. I usually complete/check with A10 and AJ and raise with AQ/AK, for not other reason that just my hand strength dominates more ranges, and less vulnerable to top pair, etc. I raise A10-AJ usually over LP limps or one limper.

I've started to re-think this and am wondering it makes sense to complete/check more to multiple limpers and EP limpers who could have stronger ranges, but almost always raise to MP and LP limpers.

Here is an example, without trying to be results oriented:

1/2 game

UTG limps
3 other limp
Hero (SB) raises to $18 with AQo
Only UTG calls

Flop Ac3d5d 2 diamonds
H bets $30
UTG calls
Turn 6c
H bets $100
UTG calls

River 2c check check
UTG shows AK

I know I should have just checked or bet smaller on the turn here, but what I am more concerned about is how raising preflop got me in this bloated pot totally dominated in the first place. I know the AK v AQ battle on a A flop is pretty rare, but I wouldn't call it a cooler, because it was avoidable to lose a lot less money...or was it? I think it was but its really weird to me to start checking premium Aces in the blinds and then letting Ax make two pair or whatever. I guess you always run the risk of something outflopping you. I just hope they raise me and I can lose the minimum. I suppose the same could be said for big Aces in EP. Aren't we is a pretty similar spot, except we can open for a little bit less?

I know some of this is pretty player dependent.

If UTG is the kind of guy who will call $18 with Ax and it a total station we should be raising all day. This guy was an unknown, middle aged white guy. But I tend to assume people just hate to fold and usually we are ahead of their ranges.

I would really like to hear some logical thoughts on this topic. Thank you.
Playing big aces OOP Quote
08-08-2015 , 06:08 PM
A couple thoughts:

-It's table-dependent (obvious comment is obvious).

-More importantly, you should have a plan for every table you're at, and that plan should influence how you play these big aces.

-I actually like your betting line in the example hand. AK should be a very small part of villain's range (he didn't raise or limp-reraise with it. That's... rare). You're charging his Ax hands and his flush draws. Depending how deep the two of you are, I might bet $75 instead of $100, but the turn shouldn't be a tiny bet by any means, and it certainly shouldn't be a check. On the river, you should be deciding between bet/folding and check/calling, depending on his propensity to bluff busted draws.

In general, the big things to watch for are (1) how sticky are players preflop? You don't particularly want to play a 5-way bloated pot with AQo. But iso'ing a player while taking down some dead money is a great outcome. Adjust accordingly. (2) what are their major postflop leaks? If you've got a couple people at the table who can't fold any pair, go ahead and let them see a flop for cheap -- it'll be easy to shovel money in the center later on. But if you're up against players who won't play big pot without a big hand, then you're going to need to manipulate the pot size now if you want to play for big money later. (3) How fit-or-fold is the table? If you're up against a bunch of postflop nits and feel you can profitably c-bet wider than normal, you should be raising wider than normal as well.
Playing big aces OOP Quote
08-08-2015 , 06:16 PM
I understand your concern about playing big aces oop.
For that particular example, I like everything you did except the turn sizing. If you were betting $100 because you thought V had a flush draw to price him out, I get that.

I think I would have bet $60, $65 ish on the turn. (generally, very generally UTG caller who calls $18 UTG isn't going to be with SC. Mostly likely some top of the range hand like AK QQ JJ maybe even KK 1/2 game) I think if he calls your flop bet its probably a strong hand like AK AQ or maybe AJ.

Sometimes depending on the game flow and conditions, I might just limp complete AQ SB and just check call because of being OOP.

Personally over my experiences my biggest loser (money wise) position is SB and BB. So I try to avoid big pots with just top pair type hands oop. Obviously this changes if you have some crazy maniac on the table but if UTG is limping AK good chance there not that much money to be made
Playing big aces OOP Quote
08-08-2015 , 10:33 PM
I'm wondering if OP is playing with scared money.

I always raise big aces from EP, and if I get multiple callers and miss the flop, I've got no problem check-folding. Ho-hum.

Not every hole will strike oil.

Last edited by DrChesspain; 08-08-2015 at 10:41 PM.
Playing big aces OOP Quote
08-08-2015 , 11:41 PM
There is nothing wrong with mixing up your play, ie not always raising pre with a big Ace OOP. Don't get too carried away, or become predictable.

I am getting better at reading the table, and have a better sense of when to c-bet OOP, delay c-bet, and OOP I've gotten much tighter. I expect players to have better hands when they call my EP PFR, and understand that when my AQ runs into AK, that it was at least as likely to run into AJ/AT. The right decision doesn't always work out, it's still the right decision.
Playing big aces OOP Quote
08-09-2015 , 12:48 AM
The raise size is important. If you're raising looking for folds, don't do it with AQ, do it with rags. If you're doing it for value, it needs to be for value, you can't raise so big all worse folds. I don't do this exactly, but IP a lot of my 3-bets are small, I basically don't want any difference between a guy's raising range and his raise/call-a-3b range, now I have the lead, got more $ in, and have pos, and often better cards and skill.
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08-09-2015 , 01:13 AM
raising AK AQ 99% of the time from all positions. OP ur thought process is mainly correct with a couple flaws. sounds like ur scared money. unless were very deep even if i know raise to 10bb OOP will get 5 calls.. .im still raising. may egen raise bigger. just flop tp and get it in against loose idiots.
even if table limps aa kk qq ak 100% of the time....its still a mistake not to raise ak aq from blind against limpers. aq is only crushed ~20% of the time at a full table. AJ KQ AT i will often limp after several limps if people are prone to limp ak aq jj or better as even AJ is dominated ~50% of the time at full table
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08-09-2015 , 01:18 AM
lets say u raise huge pre with AQ and get 4 calls. on average ignoring ur holecards ......u will win pot 20% of time. with AQ u have an equity edge and will still only win ~25% of the time. that small edge adds up quickly in bloated pots long term which is why raising big is optimal. at the same time those numbers show that u will lose most of the pots even gainst trash hands. those small losses u accept cause usually when u win big pot or lose small amount. good spot!
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