First off I'm asking here because the micro full ring has really limited activity. I use 5nl and 10nl online as practice for my live game. I find them pretty similar.

I posted this in micro full ring and got one response of "why are we checking the flop". I really think we should range check this flop but not positive given I'm oop. I'm curious what pio would do, so if someone is able to run it that would be awesome.

Also assuming this is 1/2 live what are your thoughts?

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So after 3b this pre this flop is pretty much a check with my entire range. Obviously I could have some nut flushes here where I'm c/r'ing a lot.

Thoughts on throwing this hand into my c/r range as a semi bluff. Knowing that if we get it in we can't be in too bad of shape.

Turn shove is meh. I don't know what else I'd do given the action at this point, which means I don't know how well I like a flop c/r. That card doesn't hit either of our ranges, but it helps protect my actual hand from something like 9T in case a T binks the river.

If someone could run it through pio with the following ranges. I feel these are pretty accurate ranges:
3! Range oop
AJs+, JJ+, AQo+, A4 and A5s (about 5% of hands).

Calling range ip
55-JJ, ATs+, any two suited Broadway, KQo, and suited connectors from 56 up. That gets you to top 13% range so I would throw in a few suited gappers or something else to fill up a top 15% range. Which is pretty standard calling range for the morons I see at 5nl. Although it it's not bad if they are good post flop.

I'd be interested in seeing what pio recommends on the flop with it's range.

Ran it through PIO (but i'm too lazy / technically inept to make a screenshot and post it, sorry) and it basically says you need to bet/call your flushes and all overpairs with a spade ~50% of the time, x/call the other 50% of the time, with the exception of flushes and specifically JxJ, which are x/raises. Non spade overpairs are bet/folded ~60% of the time, and always x/call with ace highs with a spade.

In reality i'm personally b/f my overpairs without a spade, and x/calling those with a spade, since the population is more valueheavy than PIO and doesn't have enough semibluffs for me to block anyway.

Thank you. Interesting it's only x/r with JJs

Your 3-bet range seems way too tight, and not sure A5/A4 make great squeezes when they are really good calls.

I don't mind a flop check, but raising seems like spew. You're never, ever folding anything better.

To me the c/r was for value not a bluff. You are right better is never folding but I feel worse is going to play back often enough to make it plus ev.

Right in your OP you asked if we should use this combo as a semi-bluff.

Good catch I made the post a few days ago right after the hand. I guess at the time I felt it was more as a bluff and since then I've convinced myself it was for value. Haha

The more I think about it the less I like a c/r.

Don’t know where people got the idea of range bet or range check, but PIO never range checks or range bets. If you always choose a certain action that’s very exploitable and you’re letting your opponent realize too much equity, and you’re not forcing them into marginal spots with different parts of their range.

Im not saying range check or range bet is bad, but the reason that (you) do it or can do it isnt as simple as having a huge range advantage or a huge range disadvantage.

I might run it through PIO later not at home atm

Pretty clear check/call flop. Villian has a clear range advantage in this spot


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As expected, AsAx is a much higher freq cbet than most people would expect. PIO bets AxAs about 40% of the time and 60% of the time. AA no spade is mostly check/calling, 85% of the time

Surprisingly, PIO cbets this board at a pretty high freq even given range disadv: 40% bet vs 60% check. PIO never uses 2/3 sizing almost ever, it vastly prefers 1/3 sizing.

Raising facing a bet is fine, PIO does this 20% of the time vs 40% of the time calling. Also most people are too semi-bluff heavy when they x/r this flop so you'll get looked up pretty damn light

I'm curious; where are you getting this from? I feel like I've heard a lot of balance/GTO circulating around the internet that didn't originate from solvers or were misapplied, and I misapplied some concepts to my game too. Like "oh bad flop, range check flop" or "good flop, range cbet flop." It's really quite not that simple and PIO never ever comes close to range cbetting or range checking flop. I do believe there's a reason to range cbet some board textures and it is a better strat than splitting your range, but it's not quite as simple as "good flop, range cbet". some boards are 70-75% cbets in PIO, but I've never seen PIO come close to checking that even on awful boards.

I'm trying to use PIO more and fix up some parts of my ranges vs regs/unknowns. I.e. range check way less often. Think range checking is somewhat of a mistake in any spot, moreso than range cbetting (which is also bad imo in a good amount of spots). I mean yeah don't get me wrong it's not a terrible strat. It's probably better than betting all your good hands and x/f all your air, but probably losing a ****ton of EV by range checking.

As mentioned above Pio will always use a mixed strategy but as my coach & I have discussed this is almost impossible to apply in real time so we can use a simplified strategy of betting 100% range at 1/3rd or 1/2 pot. Witch will actually yeild the same EV as the mixed strategy


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I really started thinking about it when you made your comment above.

I think you are right. C/r AA w/ nfd here does nothing for me where I play online. At ignition it's always anonymous and I rarely get more than 100 hands played with a given opponent. So them knowing I could be c/r this flop doesn't really give me the advantage it should.

That said the live games I play are the complete opposite. It's a home game where about half of the table is really well known. So in that situation if I played this hand against some of the lags in my game I do feel it would buy me some check backs later when I have a hand like QQ no spade or AK no spade. Hands where I'm happy to see a brick turn for free (or maybe draw to a pair).

That doesn't really answer the range check/bet question. My answer is more about my range composition and how villains will play against me. So since I don't have a great answer it's something I need to look into.

Yeah i know that’s the reason why. It’s more complicated than that but yeah that’s the gist of it. im just saying most people who range cbet dont know the reason behind it, and they range cbet a lot of boards they shouldnt be.

It actually doesnt yield the same ev; we’re sacrificing some EV by mixing our strat. That’s what we give up by simplifying the game tree. But in reality it’s probably negligible since humans cannot play with a perfectly mixed strat like PIO, or arguably more +EV to just range cbet.

I hope your coach isn’t telling you to range cbet the majority of flop textures. That might work on recs or people who arent good at adjusting, but vs a good reg or someone who knows how to adjust, your EV is going to drop a lot if you’re range cbetting more than say 25% of boards and get exploited a lot.

Pio doesn’t even use range bets/checks in spots with very imbalanced ranges? I imagine it would still range check many flops from BB as the preflop caller.

Pretty sure I’ve seen some range bet spots posted from Pio using node locking. Also, it’s actually not hard to construct spots that would call for range bets and aren’t blatantly artificial. Probably a lot of them only occur due to funky ranges arising from mistakes on prior streets by one or both players, though.

Ah forgot to specify i meant as PFR/3-bettor, which is usually the focus of debate when people talk about “range betting” or “range checking,” and the focus of this thread.

But yeah when you defend from BB you want to check nearly your entire range over to PFR. You’d donk only single digits. That’s an anomaly as the PFR/3-bettor wrt check or bet

Not saying range bet is wrong, against many players and on a good amount of boards it’s more than fine as an exploit & to simplify our strat, but when you’re range cbetting J107ss or Q97r 3-way to the flop then you’re gonna start having problems

If we 3bet MP’s open of $20 in a live $2/$5 game at 100bb from the Button with TT & he calls.

Flop ($127)
Ks 8h 2c

& we cbet 1/3 ($42) it’s impossible for him to start going crazy & check raise with impunity.

This is very different to 7s 8d 9s

& on this board we would actually check behind with our entire range.


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