I've been getting crushed in this 1-3, no buy-in cap 10 handed game in NYC, after reading a bunch the past couple weeks, I'm realizing that most of the spots I've stacked off in I should have folded pre. But I'm wondering what my range should be.

The game:
Plays much more aggressive than a casino as most games in NYC do. About 50% of hands are raised pre, but no one seems to be able to fold anything but absolute rags pre-flop. I mean, in my 3 hour session earlier this week, I saw exactly 0 hands that didn't get to the flop.
The standard open pre is $15, this will get 3 callers more often than not.
There's no cap on the buy in so people are usually pretty deep here, with the average stack at the start of the game at $500

So...

What are good raising and limping range in EP/MP/LP? What style of play would you suggest based on your range?

Also, slightly off topic, but Seeing as there's no cap on the buyin, what would you buyin for to support your range and style?


Thanks...

-Make your raises bigger than the standard open. Whatever gives you fold equity and/or gets you to a flop HU. If that means opening to 50, so be it. Most players, even really loose ones, have a sizing treshold of what they will call. Find out what that threshold is and go slightly over it.

-Play very tight in EP/MP, probably raise AQ+/99+ with no limps. Add in some lower pairs we can flat or limp to set mine, from MP onwards.

-in LP obviously expand your range, by flatting broadways, suited aces and decent SC's. 3bet a linear range imo, TT+/KQs/ATs/AQo or something like that, and again make the sizing bigger.

-fold a lot from the SB and defend a tightish range from the BB. Your range should contain a lot of pairs, decents suited aces and good broadway hands from these positions. 3bet with premiums only.

As for the buyin, go big imo, assuming we have a significant edge on the field. In these types of games you want to have everyone covered, and keep the SPR as big as possible. Be prepared for some sickening variance though.

GL.

Don't be a massive nit, or they won't invite you back.

This sounds like a blame-hunting exercise. If you're saying you should have folded pre because you're playing too loose pre, fine. If you're saying you should have folded pre simply because you got stacked and that's the most obvious way it could have been avoided, that's not fine.

Nah... I don't think so... The worst was I limped in with 96 UTG+1 and flopped the low end of the straight and put it all in OTF to someone who had the top end. As played on the flop I was ok, but why oh why was limping in with 96 in EP in the first place? Because I'm an f-ing idiot, that's why.

Thanks. I think this is probably good advice, I'll try this next time. I think in general I was way too wide in EP and probably MP. I'm not sure that I have a huge edge over these guys, there are definitely a lot of players there who at least talk like they've read some of these forums... I never hear the word "range" but I do hear them talk about "value" a lot. No one is drinking fwiw.

If people are usually really deep this explains why they are so loose preflop. They are playing more hands trying to stack people. I would suggest loosening up in position and being very aggressive with your good hands.

IMO (and this will be a flame inducing comment), this is a great table to have no raising range whatsoever preflop. The stacks are too deep for an open raise to create a favourable SPR to stack off to postflop (especially when they'll often go multiway), and you'll simply get yourself into a lotta gross spots (if you're comfortable in those spots, then fine, keep doing what you're doing). But with the table being aggro and loose, it's a perfect table to just open limp / overlimp all your big hands and then after a raise + bunch of calls decide whether you should limp/reraise to take down a bunch of dead money stress free and if anyone calls you have a simple stack off situation postflop with TP.

And really have to tighten up in EP/MP, imo.

Also a good game to BI short with (such as $200) and just play super tight, open limp to reraise, and double up.

There will be some question whether this strategy will kill you from being invited to the game again, and that is admittedly an issue you might have to deal with. (I have zero home game experience)

ETA: I addressed many of these issues in the Limping thread (which I got flamed for), but in a game that is most going to see a raise go very multiway for very small percentages of stacks preflop (and I'm assuming little 3betting) you really have to ask yourself exactly *why* you are the one doing the raising (even with your strong hands). The cop out answer is "for value", but it ain't that simple in these conditions.

GbutIsuckatdeepstack,sowhateverG

I think I like the short stack strategy... I think if I buy in $500 or more though, the pot/stack ratio won't be that off balance.

I'm not too worried about not getting invited back, it's a raked game so it's a business and they only don't allow real a-holes back, I'm pretty friendly even when getting crushed.

But anyway, give me an actual range here if I do buy-in for $200. You open limp everything in EP? and LP only 3! 99-AA and AK?

$500 stacks with $15 opens and multiple callers is pretty much a nightmare result, imo. Unless you are super good at playing $75 pots 5ways with an SPR of ~6 (if you are, then no worries).

If you BI with a $200 stack you can even open big hands yourself if you're cool stacking off with overpairs multiway (I'd typically open at least $20 to be slightly more cool with that). But open limping / overlimping big hands works out fine too seeing a raise to $15 + 3 callers (setting up a trivial reraise + stackoff situation and if everyone folds, whatever, you just made $60 uncontested which is likely more than AA makes on average). In a game like this, especially with a small stack, I'd play nit tight in EP/MP and pretty much only get into the pot with 77+/AK/AQmaybe/KQsmaybe, limp/overlimping to reraise the bigger end. Leave the loosening up to LP.

Many will think this is far too tight, but it really depends on what you think your skill advantage over the field is postflop (i.e. do you have one?).

Gbasicallyjustasuggestion;dowhatyouthinkwillworkin thisgameG

I play in these games, please don't use this strategy.

People have to search out these underground games so you don't get anyone who's a total noob just wandering in from the craps table. The "fish" are usually maniacs who have a ton of money, want to gamble, and don't care about what hand they have. However, they're not idiots, they usually play a lot, and they know what it means when you limp-reraise.

The way you make money in these games is (I) cooler someone deepstack (hard to plan to do that but you can put yourself in position to cooler someone, rather than be coolered), (ii) think value post, like top pair v. someone who will call you down with middle pair, (iii) bluff catching maniacs who will attempt to exploit any show of weakness and (iv) semi-bluffing scared money regs. Knowing your opponents is crucial in a deep stack game. Position is crucial as well. Hands like AQo go down in value while A5s goes up (you want the nuts deep stacked).

GG - unlike the way you describe the games you play in, people will play for stacks (even very deep stacks) with non-nutted hands in these games. For a lot of players, the amount of money just isn't that material. By raising pre, you get money in with an equity advantage and make a pot that is "worth" someone stacking off with TPNK v. your overpair.

I disagree, the hand is reasonably straightforward. You basically never c-bet air. You c-bet your good draws and top pair + type of hands. You bet fold a lot without a monster unless you have a read V is capable of bluffing and the board is wet. People will pay you off with worse.

My final point on these games is they usually have small player pools and you should get to know who the fish/whales are. There are a number of people I play with (1/2 uncapped game that plays a lot like 2/5) where I will buy in for any amount to make sure I have them covered. If I walk in and see they're sitting on $1k, that's what I buy in for. If they win a big pot, I try to add on (within reason).

If, as you say, the players aren't idiots and know what you have (such as when you limp/reraise), doesn't that mean $75 pots in an SPR of <= 6 (where forcing postflop commitment is trivial) is difficult if they aren't horrible postflop?

My 1/3 NL table plays much the same way: very loose and aggro (especially preflop) but with players who have half a clue. Yesterday there were 2 limps to me $300 effective, so I make it $30 with AQo in LP (10x, whatever, standard). I get 3 calls, so obviously I sized too small. Not really the result I wanted, but admittedly not totally unexpected. Q53ss flop. Checks to me. I bet $75 into $120 (probably not as big as I should have), the first preflop coldcaller in the SB shows his neighbour his QJhh and folds. He's obviously extremely loose preflop, but he's not a complete idiot; he knows what is going on and knows I've got him smoked postflop. Before I hear the barrage of "well you should obviously barrelling air here multiway" another guy check/jams his over + flush draw and I hold (even my call is debatable since I'm usually either ~drawing dead vs barely ahead). But what do I do if the SB calls the flop bet? I'll have just $195 left in a $270 pot. Is he on a draw? Does he have a set? He doesn't have TP, I know that, cuz he knows how to fold that. I guess I'll find out when all my chips go in? The opponents clearly all made a mistake preflop; but did any of them make a mistake postflop? This is not an easy spot, imo.

Even if everyone "knows" that we have AA when we limp/reraise, taking down huge dead money preflop uncontested could easily be far more EV than the alternative in these types of games. But I guess a lot depends on what you figure your postflop skill advantage is over the field.

Gjustmywayofthinkingofit;OPcandowhathewantsG

Yeah, this sounds pretty similar to my game. So, I think I'm coming around to your advice and buying in short and knitting it up.

However it occurred to me today that even if I do this, I'm going to then need a deep stacked game plan, because if I actually can double a $200 BI, I'm not going to just hit and run with $200 profit, and I'll be sitting with a $400 stack.

Yes, very good point. My solution in my room (where there are typically 3 - 5 tables going) is to effectively rat hole by hopefully moving to an easier table and/or shorter stacked table, but you won't have that option. Still, at least you'll be playing with the houses money at that point.

GgoodluckG

In an underground game in the city, I'd expect to stack QJs with AQ on a Q-high flop. If people are really calling w QJs then folding when they flop two pair you should be c-betting every flop. That's insanity.

Where's your game? This sounds like the games I was playing in 10 or so years ago, but not anymore.

Ok... so I guess what I'm planning is this:

Buy in for $200:
In EP-MP: don't open raise a single hand, limp/flat 66-99, limp/3! TT-AA, and AQs-AK
In LP: limp/flat 22-77, open raise 88-AA AQo-AK, 3Bet JJ-AA AQs-AK, shove QQ-AA and AK

Once I've got $400:
Obviously this is villan dependant but basically I'm going to follow Viral's advice:
EP-MP, Raise AQ+/99+, 3! AK+/JJ+
LP: flatting broadways, suited aces and decent SC's. 3bet TT+/KQs/ATs/AQo, 4!/shove KK-AA


Good idea? Bad idea?

Usually in BK but sometimes in the city too.

In GG's example there's $120 in the pot and $270 behind. I'd expect to get called a lot by top pair good kicker by betting $90 flop and shoving turn

A J is not a good kicker against a person who opens $30 preflop at 1/3 and then double barrels.

I expect a single pair with average kicker to call my turn shove about 20-30% of the time, and be dominated in other 70% of cases.

Call it mubsy if you will.

In my example QJs only flopped one pair (I'm assuming you meant "then folding when they *don't* flop two pair*+*").

Games have changed, imo. Yes, you'll run into opponents who will still get stacked with TP here, but not nearly as much as before. And yes, sometimes QJs is even making a mistake by folding here, as sometimes I might be betting a flush draw or JJ/TT; but most of the time, Villain is correct in assuming this is TP+ from me.

And, as I've stated, I can't just blindly cbet every flop multiway because there is too good a chance I'll run into a hand that won't fold (and even in this case *only* 4handed I ran into over + flushdraw).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I've played in these games and they've been profitable. However, I buy in for at least $500 and I'm pretty tight. Play your position. Don't limp from EP, especially with junk hands. Raise your premiums, and limp or call from LP with good holdings that can hit the nuts.

Another key that I've found in these games is VALUE BET. They call with anything, so keep putting money in when you have it, and sometimes "it" is just top pair.

I am not a fan of short-stacking, so cannot comment on that.

Just went back and read a few other posts, this is pretty good. I play in these games when I'm in NYC, and I would never buy in short. Position is key and knowing your opponents, which doesn't really take that long, is a must. Seriously, they can be very profitable.

As games become more difficult (especially with regards to competency of postflop play), I've totally reversed my opinion on shortstacking, and now employ it in most games I play.

It's totally dependent on how you feel your postflop skillz stack up against your opponents (noting that you must be extremely honest/accurate with your evaluation, and "lol, LLSNL opponent, amirite?" doesn't cut it anymore).

G180degreeturnG

So, you are not confident in your post-flop play? That's very honest of you, and I totally respect it.

I must play in different games, because most of my opponents are not great post (or in general), and I know to stay away from the ones who are. For me, it's knowing my opponents and playing appropriately, but when I stack someone (get my stack in), I want it to mean something (The majority of players in the NYC games I attend are not to be feared.)

Question: Do you just quit when you double/triple up?