1/2 NL super late, like 3am weeknight.

Hero, MAWG. $800ish stack. Play is more tight than most more aggressive than most, but not exactly TAG as defined here.

V1 UTG: Covers. Young kid who I've seen a lot recently. Good player, plays classic TAG with a bit of LAG pre. Positionally aware.
I moved to his left shortly after sitting down and have 3-bet his raises about 8-9 times in the last 6 hours. About half the time with premium and half the time light. Each time I took it down from him pre or on the flop. He just moved to my left+1 about 1 orbit ago. he's been a lot quieter pre recently shifting gears from LAG to TAG.

V2 UTG+1: $400. Late 20's black guy. He just sat down from a broken game. I recognize him as a good player, but have not played with him in a while. I think he plays some 1/2, some 2/5, some PLO.

V3 Button: $350. Middle aged spanish guy. Total fish. Calls way too much. Bad bet sizing, etc. Positionally unaware.

To the hand:

V1 opens to $10. This is his standard raise. He is positionally aware, so this is not a speculative hand like JTs. Range him 55+, big A.

V2 flats.
V3 flats.

Hero has AcKc in the small blind. Hero?

Can go either way but I prefer a flat.

Given his range is mostly pairs and big aces and you are 400 BB's effective, it's highly unlikely you take this down preflop with a 3!. So you're looking at a minimum of $60 preflop (if you go smaller you risk going 4-way in a 3! pot) and he's most likely going to play perfectly against you postflop folding his pairs when A/K spikes the flop and continuing vs. your c-bets when it doesn't. When you get set mined he is going to take a healthy portion of your stack.

With relative position and a disguised hand that can make two different nuts (plus TPTK) I think I go for deception and just flat pre.

The only thing complicating matters is that you are SB and not closing the action.

I like anywhere from 50-60 here. Sizing up due to being oop the rest of the way. Can also get behind a flat like suggested above due to being suited. If this were offsuit I’m definitely 3betting here

Maybe lame, but I flat AKs here. I want to mix in some strong calls sometimes so why not here. At 1/2, I'm looking to pot control when super-deep, out of position, and against 1 of the few good players at the table.

Can't win money flatting. If you were going to choose AK combos to flat it would be suited however. You really cannot ignore the possibility nor the glory of winning the blinds with A high.
You also are immediately forcing UTG into a difficult spot both pre and post facing a 3b, with a strong ranged UTG1 caller+fish behind.

Applying that pressure is an additionally important part of good play against good players. You also increase the likelihood of winding up HU with the btn and that's what a crusher wants.

There is no way that I flat there and then risk getting two additional callers or even another raiser OP with AK suited. In my opinion absolutely need to raise. You will rarely get a fold but you will hopefully ISO. That in itself is a win. AK suited against 3 callers OP is a recipe to lose money.

I would look at raising to 40-50.

As a side note if you have taken pots down by raising with V1 then it may even work again and that's an instant win

If I'm going to 3!, I'd rather do it with a polarized range and use A5s or A4s here.

Saying we can't win money flatting AKs getting 3:1 (maybe 4:1 with BB) and relative position seems misleading at best and factually incorrect at worst.

We've already 3! this guy 8-9 times in 6 hours and now he has position on us. We know what his range is while ours is incredibly wide. I'll take that deception and equity to the flop.

100% 3bet.
We are ahead of all of their ranges, we have a hand with decent playability, we want more money to go in and since we are oop, we want initiative so we can be sure a bet goes in when we want it to.

Villains are gonna be able to play close to perfect vs us if we flat as well, since we are oop in a multiway spot. Might as well put some money in there. 60 sounds good.

$60

Since we 3bet him 8-9 times already our 3b range is also wide. So it's a choice between (deception + multiway equity=)flatting, or (deception + fold equity + actual equity + preflop value=)3bet imo.

Flatting surely would be profitable, but highly unlikely to be optimal.

Also, i'd prefer a polarized 3bet range when we are in position. OOP i'm 3betting much more linearly and AKs obviously fits well in that range.

$65

Who's going to have a harder time playing their range and realizing their equity when we go 4-way to the flop, hero or villain? It's a rhetorical question because it's unequivocally villain.

If he's playing 55+/AQ+/KQs and the flop comes Q83 he's going to be playing completely face up in a 3! pot. He's going to c-bet when he has AQ/KQs and sets and x/f when he has something like 66.

So he's going to be x/f tons of flops and we get perfect information before we decide what to do. If he x and UTG+1 x and BTN throws out some 20/40 bet and we're sitting here with two overs + BDFD + BDSD we can put in a raise knowing we've got ~30% equity when called vs. any one-pair hand that doesn't share our kickers plus an additional chance to fold better OTT.

Further, it's a lot easier to flush over flush somebody when there are 4 players in the hand as opposed to 2. And we really get to take villain to value town on Axx Kxx and Qxx flops when villain starts betting. If you're worried about balance at 1/2 (lol) and that villain will think "he can never have the nut flush here cuz he flats AKs" then 3! A5s/A4s and you've now doubled your nut flush combos.

Frankly, given the fact that we are 400 BB's deep and OOP I'm inclined to just flat AKo as well and play a super high SPR pot with relative position. We are setting ourselves up for massive mistakes when we raise to $60, villain defends because he's obviously never folding his UTG range to a 3!, and now we're sitting at a 5.3x SPR flop OOP with a face-up range vs. a good player's tight UTG range with *AT MOST* 50% equity.

AKo OOP 400 BB's deep with relative position and a 20x SPR is a good outcome and the cautious way to play a hand that will rarely improve beyond one pair.

AKs OOP 400 BB's deep with relative position and a 20x SPR is a great outcome.

Nobody advocating for a 3! has bothered explaining how they plan to make any money in this spot.

Against any reasonably competent player, that deception flies out the window when you suddenly come alive or even overcall from the SB on flops that remotely hit AKcc, as does the meta of having 3! the guy 8-9 times in 6 hours. I mean for that reason alone, why not lean hard on that when you actually have a 'value' hand?

Sure, there are conditions where there is merit to flatting and actually having the hand that V1 is going to rep. But not here when doing so results in a 4+ way pot with a fish otb and V2 on the guy's left - he won't be continuing often without AK on Axx boards, so all that deception goes out the window and you'll be stuck trying to out-value the other two.

Also, the whole idea that we shouldn't 3b because then V1 can 'play perfect' routine is hogwash. You must know first hand what a ***** it is playing against good (even bad) players who make pots big, even when you're IP with a legitimately solid range. I mean, if you raised UTG, do you think you're really going to make expensive mistakes postflop in 2b pot when the SB is still in the hand with 400bb?

3bet to 60, get 4 folds, make $43.

3bet to 60, get 2 calls, Axx flop, bet 100, 2 folds, make $130.

3bet to 60, get 2 calls, 733r flop, bet 100, 2 folds, make $130.

3bet to 60, get 2 calls, xxx, bet 100, 2 folds, make $130.

3bet to 60, get 2 calls, xxx, bet 100, get 1 call, bet 250 on any turn, get fold, make $230.

I could go on, but...

I mean when we 3b they either fold = we win $$. Or they call with worse hands = we win $$

Never happening.

So run good?

Never happening.

Never happening... but also run good?

Highly unlikely, but okay. but also ... basically run good?

Please do, because you haven't described anything besides running good and a good villain with a tight UTG range isn't just dumping his equity on the flop like you seem to think he will.

UTG has 50% equity vs. us and is never folding to a 3!.

Psst, Johnny, I'll tell you a little secret about LLSNL...



Don't tell anybody.

$60 is too small - make it 75-85

Oh, come on man.

There is 30 in the pot and 2 other players with both <50% equity in the hand. If those 2 fold we need ~40 equity to be +EV. If they both call we need 25%. In the latter case we have between 30-45% equity and we are printing even more EV money.

3bet to 60, get 2 calls. flop TcJcQc, get all in 3-ways against 8c9c and QQ. ez game.


I think 3-betting is probably fine but given V1 is a good player with a strong UTG range, and given the previous dynamic at play, plus all the things Johnny mentioned in his very good posts in this thread.. I like a flat here and play a pot with a disguised, strong, multiway hand, high SPR, and good relative position.

Please show your math because I have no idea what you are trying to say.

It looks like you are using hot/cold equity which doesn't really apply when seeing a flop. Your statement also seems to be irrespective of effective stacks which are large and fairly pivotal to how we play this hand.

Good players don't continue with their entire range against aggression, unless he thinks we're taking advantage of an obvious squeeze spot.

If he does call, he's heading to the flop with a weak range when we have a strong range and a strong hand. How is that a bad thing? There are a ton of ways for our hand to flop equity and we can c-bet and win with this hand at a high frequency or retain good equity when we get called.

To answer your question of "how do we plan to make money by 3-betting." It is by either getting folds from high equity hands that have position on us or by seeing the flop with a hand that plays very well post-flop and has a lot of equity against ranges right now. To think we can't get all folds is silly. Villain is supposed to not suck and our raise is sizable enough. To think that we can't win money post with this hand in a 3-bet pot is also unrealistic.

BTW, OP's range for UTG is too tight when it seems like he's deep with most of the table.

When 75% of your UTG raising range is PP's you are continuing with the majority of your range. If you happen to fold out his few combos of AQo, congrats I guess.

UTG ranges aren't weak, especially when OP is giving us an explicit read that UTG is a good player on a stack that covers the table and is telling us what he thinks his range is.

Well gee whiz let's just give him 72s for balance while we're at it. We're operating in the confines of what OP gives us. You can't just say "no your range is wrong" to justify a position when OP seems to have a fairly solid read on his opponent.