In another thread I made a flippant comment that it takes one million hands to become a profitable player. Upon further examination that statement was easily dispproved.

However, it brings up an interesting aspect of becoming profitable that is not directly address, and that is:

What exactly is required to become a "profitable" player.

Yes, there are different paths but can you quantify an exact path?

How many hands do you think you need to play before you become break-even?
How many hands until you become profitable?

During this volume when should you read/study?
Should your studying be all at once or interspersed between set number of sessions?

What about online play, can that augment your volume?
Does online play help or hurt?

How does this all relate to playing 1/2nl, 1/3nl, 2/5nl, and 5/10nl?
How does this all relate to moving up in limit?

What about baseline ability? Should you have any proficiency (or talent) in other games like chess, backgammon, checkers, etc.???

BASICALLY, the point of this thread is to try and quantify a path to becoming profitable.

It can be based on your own specific path or it can focus on "aspects" of becoming profitable, i.e. you must do "this" specific action somewhere in your development...

This thread should also highlight any interesting or unique prerequisites or talents that can also be an indicator that you have what it takes to become profitable in poker.

Isn't the basic idea: read, play, post, rinse and then repeat, or something to that affect?

In general, I think the only thing we have to do to become a profitable player is to make sure we play in rake-reasonable games where the majority (or at least a good number) of our opponents are clearly more horrible than us (and in ways that we can clearly recognize). If that's the case, then profit is simply a function of hours (more hours = more profit).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I think what you are going to get is a lot of peoples opinions of themselves on all of this and they will try to justify that what they do is for the common good... With that said.. I like this thread. I will try to put some time into it later. I can see this heading to good places.

My path to becoming profitable player is always a work in progress. You can always run better. In my mind I'm still a lowstakes player even though I shot take 5/10. So I have a lot of work to do at the tables/away.

But let's start on how to become a profitable player.

Create a play list: this includes ranges(pokerstove), style and notes (from low stakes forums of course)ex. Nitty range, tag range, lag range, slag range and limping range.

table dynamics: very important to have the fundamentals to come up with a strategy to beat the table.

Passion: always think about the game, learn from other peoples mistakes on 2+2 and have the drive to become a great player.

"You can't put a time limit on greatness". That's what I tell my gf. She just thinks I should be a highstakes player by now. I tell her as long as I put effort into my profession everyday. Then I'm satisfied with my progress.

So op it depends on your own goals.

I believe that this is going to be very individual. It'll also be very dependent on definitions.

We don't all start at the same place. Some of us are born closer to the mark than others.

Me? I was born a winning player. I study just for the fun of it and to blend in with the worse players better. Wolf in sheep's clothing kind of thing.

I think we often overlook the importance of mentor relationships. Having other players to talk to is huge. We should all have better and worse players in our flock to interact with. This has been invaluable for me.

Live poker is incredibly simple, this longwinded thread is useless. Just think about poker, and talk to players who are good. I play poker for a living and have never used poker stove, still have managed to win 6 figures online, and won live too. Alot of stuff is nonsense, you gotta figure out what is and isn't. Almost all the friends i have that play exclusively live are awful, results oriented monkeys who have no realistic shot at making a living from playing poker. So volume is important, but playing a arbitrary number of hands doesn't really matter, as long as you're thinking about things and making decisions based on reasoning, you'll be fine at 1-2 and 2-5.

I agree having a mentor can really help, and is really good for a player

Not sure the answer to this question, but I think the first step is making every possible mistake, and then not continuing to do so. It's like getting into Heaven. First you sin, then you repent, then you change your behavior. fwiw

1. Stop playing so many hands.

2. Stop calling raises with weak hands, esp from OOP.

3. Stop slow playing.

4. Stop paying people off when you know you're beat.

5. Plug your other leaks, such as table games, sports betting, etc.

I make a decent profit at 1/2... Things that have helped me recently (last few months) are:

1. No ego. Don't try to outplay everyone, don't challenge the good players when there are so many bad players to challenge.

2. Bum hunt

3. If u know ur not gonna make awesome moves/reads, don't put urself in spots that will require this..

4. Fold a lot preflop.

5. Set stop loss for losing (ie 2 buyins)

I took a 5 month hiatus from poker last year and spent a lot of time reading every poker book I could get my hands on (I.E.- steal from Barnes & Noble; Screw the capitalists), listening to good podcasts, and just thinking about the game and talking to other players about the game. Scraping together a decent BR the whole time. I found I emerged from this break able to see the game so much more clearly. Also, I was so excited to play again so I wouldnt let myself get lazy and not pay attention to HHs. In short, I went from a break even player, to a player capable of beating 1-2nl for >$20/hr, and I did it without playing a hand.

For me, turning off my auto pilot. I ran bad towards the end of the year last year and I think I realized I was on auto pilot most of the time. I've challenged myself to come up with a reason in my head before I act for why I am about to make a specific act at the table. That plus a bit of run good in January has me in the best mindset poker-wise I've ever been in.

so screw the Capitalists

i am a capitalist mr Larry Lido

what r u? 1 of those occupy wall streeter protesters?

must b cold this time of year living in a tent

hows feel 2 b on the outside looking in?

u know what business i'm in Larry?

i'm in the import&export business

wanna know what i import&export?

b glad 2 tell u

other peoples money

i'm a *poker player*

lmao

peace brother

The answer is simple: Be the best player at your table.

How you achieve that is difficult and complex. The difficultly and complexity increases as you increase stack sizes (not blinds). As you increase the stack sizes, you increase the rewards of being the best at your table. For many people, being the best 2nl on-line player at your table is not worth doing. However, chipstar did just that several years ago and got sponsored by Pokerstars.

There's no set formula of how to achieve being the best. However if you are playing at a table with two other players who better than you, you won't be profitable in the long run. If they are equal, you'll only make a little money. You have to be the best to win good money at whatever level you play.

I don't agree with this at all. If there are 7 other horrible players at the table, I'm fairly convinced that the 2 better players as well as us will all end up crushing the game (unless the 2 better players are always getting into a hand with us and outplaying us postflop).

Phil Gordon in his LGB even gives an example where he stumbles upon a table that at first glance is horrible because it is full of well known great players, and he wonders why anyone in their right mind would sit in it. Then he notices the game has one well known huge spewing whale, so he sits in it, probably as the 9th best player in the game but thinking it is still probably profitable.

See red.

Some tidbits that have helped me go from a small loser to break-even, to now a winner (£20/hr over past 8 months, which is long enough for me to feel that I'm (hopefully) not just on a massive heater):

- read 2+2. POST to 2+2. Try to back up your arguments. Since just about every single question about any single situation in any given post could be accurately answered with 'it depends', understand that there is no single 'right' answer (although there may be a definite 'wrong' or 'worst' answer!)

- read Harrington on Cash Games (vol 1 & 2).

- Listen to Bart Hanson's podcasts (old ones still available for free on iTunes; premium service is now a $9 subscription and is well worth it). Also check out his live training videos at crushlivepoker.com. Also a subscription, $9/month and excellent value. No, I'm not a corporate shill for Bart, just a very very satisfied (and entertained) customer.

- Keep TRACK of your play. At the very least keep track of your bank roll, session wins/losses. The more detail the better. You're going to see a lot of the same people at the tables, so the more notes you can take after a session while it's still fresh in your head, the better.

- write up hand histories of interesting spots, post to 2+2 for thoughts.

- Remember that your read of the villain(s) in the hand and table dynamics ALWAYS trump whatever advice you may get from a book, 2+2 poster, etc. You're the best person to judge the person's image, your image, etc. All advice is always villain dependent. What may be a shove vs one opponent may be a call (or fold!) vs another.


Finally - and I hate to suggest these, because I don't want the guys at -my- tables following my advice, but since I've learned so much from these forums I guess it's the least I can do to say thanks:

- Play fewer hands.

- Play fewer hands. I mean it.

- Play fewer hands. I'm serious - this alone might push you from 'break-even' into 'winner' category.

- Try to have at least some mathematical basis for every decision you make at the poker table

- Your #1 priority at the poker table: Protect your stack

- Your #2 priority - find the weakest player at the table and launch an unrelenting assult on his stack.

- Learn how to value bet the river with made hands. The bigger the pot, the more willing you should be to bet. At lower stakes, people assume a river bet is either a monster or a bluff - so they'll call a good portion of the time thinking, 'well I can beat a bluff, and I don't want to be bluffed....call!'.

- Bit of a corollary to the above: don't be afraid to call river bets! You'll be pleasantly surprised at what people will bet with. If you're winning 80% of hands at showdown...you're folding better way too often. Conversly, if you're only winning 20% of hands at showdown, you're probably sticking around too long with worse. The bigger the pot, the more willing you should be to call.

- Keep track of stack sizes at all times. Don't raise from early position if you'd rather not call an all-in shove from the short-stacker in middle position.

- Poker is a game of PATIENCE. You don't need to chase any and all spots. You probably don't need to put your entire stack at risk on a coin flip - if you wait for the right moment, villains will literally push their stack to you by raising all-in to your nuts.

- Your big wins and losses will usually come from one or two big pots a session. You want to be in position to win the most possible when those spots come around. Yes, you might lose a lot as well, but you're more discplined than other villians so you're able to walk away from a hand when it's clear you're beat, right?

- If you get your money in good you'll win more than you lose over the long run. If you get felted, go back over the hand. If you got your money in good, congratulate yourself on making the right play.

- You will have evolved as a poker player when you can get outplayed and/or sucked out on, and say to the villian, "Nice hand"....and really mean it.

- Enjoy the experience. Treat the dealers, wait staff, clerks etc nicely. Tip well. Be friendly with your fellow table punters; the 'friendlier' you seem the more action you're likely to get.

- Don't tap the tank. Fish give us their money. We want them to stick around - which essentially means we want/need them to keep getting better (most fish don't have an endless supply of disposable income to donate...). If the fish start getting better....we have to keep getting better. And on and on it goes....

Don't tap the tank. Fish give us their money. We want them to stick around - which essentially means we want/need them to keep getting better (most fish don't have an endless supply of disposable income to donate...). If the fish start getting better....we have to keep getting better. And on and on it goes....

I agree with the last part of your statement that we need to stay ahead of the fish (although if a fish gains more skill than me, i would then just consider myself the fish by default) ....but the first part of your statement is confusing to me. The first part seems to contradict
itself to me.

Could you clarify your definition of tapping the tank?

In the 1/2 game i play in there is a very small player pool....maybe about 30 players total ... who have been playing eachother for five years at least. A significant portion of this pool treat their poker money like their drinking money, they want it to buy them a good time but they dont expect to see it come back. I dont need them to get better for the game to survive. They just need to get what they paid for ...a fun and exciting experience with minimal ego damage.

And that is what i need to focus on at this point in order to profit. Keep the game fun for people who are purchasing a good time.

Nice detailed insights above, thank you.

Malcolm Gladwell - 10,000 hour rule

Interesting way to think about becoming an expert, but how does that relate to becoming a profitable player? Surely becoming profitable comes before being an expert. Additionally, how does this concept apply to an ever changing landscape of study? A violinist can study today or 500 years ago and they would be studying the same thing. A computer programmer studying today would be studying something completely different than a programmer just 10 years ago.

Is poker a violin or a computer language?

At the lower stakes, a violin, IMO. To beat these games we probably just need an ok grasp on the basics, and those won't change. If the quality of play in the lower stakes evolves to such a point where basic play won't beat it, then most of us are doomed (i.e. I doubt we could outrun the rake at this point).

GdoomedG

I think alot of people are missing the point of the thread here. OP is looking for insight for a "path to profit", or a path towards proficiency. Ideas like "don't limp so much" or whatever don't constitute a path, they are more like "rules to play better".

I agree a path towards proficiency is highly individual. But nothing can substitute for volume of hands played. You can read/be coached-mentored for hours but there's no substitute for learning by your own mistakes while actually playing.

It's like growing up as a teenager and your parents saying "don't do this blah, blah, blah..." and you say "yeah, sure" and do it anyways, later on when you wise up you realize they were right. But it took actaul experience for it to truly hit home.

But isn't poker kinda a weird game in this respect? Bad plays get rewarded all the time, and good/abc/standard plays often fail. Don't we sometimes need an outside look at things (books, forums, etc.) to confirm this stuff, rather than only relying on experience (which could be results oriented tainted)?

I don't think what I wrote (if in fact you are asking me) represents the face of an expert player necessarily. One of my points was table selection. If I read one book and played, say, 50 hours and then played at a table full of guys who have never played a hand in their life I should be profitable in that game, but it does not make me an expert. Most players only put enough work in to be profitable at their game and we all know each game has its own dynamic. You could do the bare minimum of what I said above and be profitable. Now, how profitable you want to be is another story. If you are playing for a living then you better step up and get serious.

"I'm not playing for the thrill of f****** victory here. I owe rent, alimony, child support. I play for money. My kids eat. I got stones enough not to chase cards, action... or f****** pipe dreams of winning the World Series on ESPN."

*grunch*

TLDR.

whats up with ppl equating fundamentally correct play with "online poker", as though they are the same thing?

online players dont have a monopoly on correct play, although they would love to have you think so. (to prop up thier pathetically fragile egos).

I partially disagree.

learning the hard way isnt the only option.

most ppl, even serious players, are too proud to humble themselves enough to sincerely approach a coach, and take to heart what they have to teach you.

if this is you ^^^, then, ya, youre right.

even on this board, there are oppurtunities to learn from mistakes that get posted.
if you want to pass up on that, go for it, in the name of garnering 'experience'.