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Old 12-30-2016, 02:14 PM   #1
Aces_Full_47
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Pair of tricky hands

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

Hand 1 - $1/$2 at the Winstar

Hero: 25 y/o man, probably perceived as very tight. Been at the table about an hour and a half and was in the neighborhood of 20/15/7. Taking notes on hands, so perhaps perceived as a thinking player. Up to $335 thanks to a set of deuces.

V1: middle-aged man, appears at least mildly competent - at least compared to a table in which there are 3+ limps almost every hand - and leans toward being tight. Stack of about $385.

V2: middle-aged man, appears at least mildly competent - at least compared to this table - and leans toward being loose. Stack of about $285.

Pre-Flop: V2 is UTG and limps for $2. V1 is in the CU and raises to $12. I call in the big blind with AQo. V2 calls. $36 in the pot.

Flop: KQT rainbow. I check, V2 checks, V1 bets $17. V2's mannerisms don't suggest he's going to fold. Hero?


Hand 2 - $1/$2 at the Winstar

Same table as earlier. I left for a long break up about $80, but casino rule is that you can only buy in for 100BB. I've been back at the table for about another 45 minutes and haven't caught a hand worth playing past the flop (and at the Winstar, there is no point in bluffing. You will get called by fourth pair.)

V3: man in his late 20s or early 30s, LAG. Covers me by at least $200. Been in one hand with him: opened KTo OTB, he called in the BB, I C-bet a JT6r flop, and he called. Turn is a brick, I check, he bets, I fold. He says he had JT and based on the hours I played with him after this hand, I believe him to be truthful.

Pre-Flop: Hero is OTB with JJx. Folds to me and I make it $10. V3 calls.

Flop: T22x. Villain checks, I bet $15 into $31, Villain calls.

Turn: Villain bets $35 in the dark. Turn is the 6. Hero?

(I called.)

River: Villain has $50 cut out before the card is dealt and puts it in immediately after the 5 is dealt, bringing the pot to $151. Hero?

Last edited by Aces_Full_47; 12-30-2016 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 12-30-2016, 03:07 PM   #2
donkatruck
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

Hand #1, easy fold I think. What hand are beating? AT? 77-99? And given V1s description, how much AT, 77-99 does he open with? This hits his range so hard, I think trying a bluff and hoping he has AK and will fold it is out of the question as well.

Hand #2.
Your hand is seriously under repped. I call river. I think call > raise >>> fold.
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:08 PM   #3
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

For hand 1, I'm never folding for 1/2 pot on the flop, especially if the player behind me doesn't look like he's planning to raise. I'm peeling, and hoping to improve or be checked to on the turn.

Hand 2, this seems like a very easy call. As donkatruck mentioned, your hand is under-repped. With that said, I'm don't think raising is close. Call seems to be the only sane option.
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:15 PM   #4
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

Hand 1: If villain is competent I probably call and see what happens on turn. If villain is passive and doesn't c-bet dangerous boards unless he has it then folding is better.

Hand 2: Depends on knowing villain but I'm inclined to call. I expect this call be be about break even when villain continues the goofy blind bet on river. This is more about proving to LAG that you can't be pushed out of the hand then anything. Folding would be better then raising and I could fold this depending on river read and how villain plays.
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:26 PM   #5
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

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Originally Posted by QuadJ View Post
Hand 1: If villain is competent I probably call and see what happens on turn. If villain is passive and doesn't c-bet dangerous boards unless he has it then folding is better.

Hand 2: Depends on knowing villain but I'm inclined to call. I expect this call be be about break even when villain continues the goofy blind bet on river. This is more about proving to LAG that you can't be pushed out of the hand then anything. Folding would be better then raising and I could fold this depending on river read and how villain plays.
I'm just not getting the call in hand 1. Unless the board runs out Q-A and we face JJ/TT,AJ, KQ, I dont see us ever getting paid when we improve so it makes little sense to peel one off. If the J hits how are we ever extracting value from a non drooler. Do we really love life if an A hits? Do we ever get paid if a J hits?

Even giving V a wide range of 88+ AT+, KJ+, QJ, we are still decently behind. I'm finding a better spot.
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:38 PM   #6
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

Hand 1, I fold. Tight limp UTG and he appears to be calling here, what else can we hope for except to chop if the J falls? We're behind most anything he should be so comfortable with that we can already tell he's sticking around.

Hand 2, I agree we're underrepped, but you're pegging V as LAG when the background you gave doesn't really seem to support that. And even though we may be underrepped, our hand isn't really that strong here. I agree with QuadJ that I'm calling but I'm not excited about putting more into the pot. Call>fold>> raise imo.
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:47 PM   #7
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

Fold. Call.
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:51 PM   #8
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ View Post
This is more about proving to LAG that you can't be pushed out of the hand then anything. Folding would be better then raising and I could fold this depending on river read and how villain plays.
Agreed. The hand history with him wasn't about characterizing him as a LAG - it was about him potentially thinking he could get me off of medium-strength hands. In the 4 1/2 hours I was at the table with this gentleman, he was in 50%+ of the pots, driving the majority of the action post-flop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donkatruck View Post
I'm just not getting the call in hand 1. Unless the board runs out Q-A and we face JJ/TT,AJ, KQ, I dont see us ever getting paid when we improve so it makes little sense to peel one off. If the J hits how are we ever extracting value from a non drooler. Do we really love life if an A hits? Do we ever get paid if a J hits?

Even giving V a wide range of 88+ AT+, KJ+, QJ, we are still decently behind. I'm finding a better spot.
Agreed with this as well. Realistically, there aren't very many hands that I'm beating here, and with two (apparently) decent hands in play, the probability that I was drawing to a chop was a big factor in my thinking.
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Old 12-30-2016, 05:00 PM   #9
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

Hand 1 Results

I folded the AQo. V2 behind me flatted, and the turn was a brick. V2 checked, V1 bet something like 1/2 pot, V2 c/r all-in for another 150, and V1 snapped it off. River was a blank. V2 showed QQ for a set of Queens; V1 showed KK for a set of Kings.


Hands 2 Results

The only hands in his range that beat me were TT, 22, maybe 66, and the flush (though with one of the hearts in my hand, that was slightly less likely). TT seemed unlikely based on the pre-flop and flop betting. 66 also didn't make much sense, as I was repping at least TPTK on the flop and although he was a loose player, I was probably perceived as weak and had raised both pre- and post-flop. 66 probably gives up.

That leaves quad. deuces, but if this guy is getting me to call a pot-sized bet in the dark with quads, than he has a better hand AND is a better player. Perhaps, assuming he did have 22, he wanted to look like he was bluffing by doing what he would do with air? At any rate, the sheer probability of quads made this low on the list of his likely holdings.

I don't see 2x calling pre-flop, except maybe a suited A, but his line made even less sense for trips than quads. I confidently eliminate any 2x except A2 sooted - and really, A2

So really, his range here is polarized: flush, quads, or nothing. I tanked on it and the betting line didn't make sense for a flush - it made sense for someone who had seen me fold to mild aggression post-flop a few times, even after I had been the raiser pre-flop. I expect to win around 67 - 75% of the time, so folding isn't an option. Raising didn't seem wise - the top of his range wasn't folding, and the bottom wasn't calling. I made the call and he mucked.
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Old 12-30-2016, 05:04 PM   #10
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aces_Full_47 View Post
Hand 1 Results

I folded the AQo. V2 behind me flatted, and the turn was a brick. V2 checked, V1 bet something like 1/2 pot, V2 c/r all-in for another 150, and V1 snapped it off. River was a blank. V2 showed QQ for a set of Queens; V1 showed KK for a set of Kings.


Hands 2 Results

The only hands in his range that beat me were TT, 22, maybe 66, and the flush (though with one of the hearts in my hand, that was slightly less likely). TT seemed unlikely based on the pre-flop and flop betting. 66 also didn't make much sense, as I was repping at least TPTK on the flop and although he was a loose player, I was probably perceived as weak and had raised both pre- and post-flop. 66 probably gives up.

That leaves quad. deuces, but if this guy is getting me to call a pot-sized bet in the dark with quads, than he has a better hand AND is a better player. Perhaps he wanted to look like he was bluffing? At any rate, the sheer probability of quads made this low on the list of his likely holdings.

I don't see 2x calling pre-flop, except maybe a suited A, but his line made even less sense for trips than quads. I confidently eliminate any 2x except A2 sooted - and really, A2

So really, his range here is polarized: flush, quads, or nothing. I tanked on it and the betting line didn't make sense for a flush - it made sense for someone who had seen me fold to mild aggression post-flop a few times, even after I had been the raiser pre-flop. I made the call and he mucked.
So he mucked before you showed your cards or mucked after?
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Old 12-30-2016, 05:13 PM   #11
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by donkatruck View Post
So he mucked before you showed your cards or mucked after?
Edit. Had to think about it a bit - this was at 4:00 AM last night - but I recall that he mucked before I showed. I continued to turn my hand over anyway for table image purposes.
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Old 12-30-2016, 06:00 PM   #12
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

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Originally Posted by Aces_Full_47 View Post
So really, his range here is polarized: flush, quads, or nothing. I tanked on it and the betting line didn't make sense for a flush.
Keep in mind that if you choose to estimate his range this way, then calling is a breeze at this sizing.
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Old 12-30-2016, 06:49 PM   #13
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by donkatruck View Post
So he mucked before you showed your cards or mucked after?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
Keep in mind that if you choose to estimate his range this way, then calling is a breeze at this sizing.
It does seem like an easier call in retrospect, with some other players' input. Do you disagree with my estimate of his range? Wouldn't be posting if I weren't trying to learn.
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:13 PM   #14
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

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Originally Posted by Aces_Full_47 View Post
It does seem like an easier call in retrospect, with some other players' input. Do you disagree with my estimate of his range? Wouldn't be posting if I weren't trying to learn.
Nutty hands generally aren't played with all the shenanigans and his bluffs are hard to identify after he ck-c flop. The clown show line is indicative of weak made hands, small FDs, with a few AQ+ type hands mixed in that don't want to fold/want to show down/don't know how to go about it.

I'd expect to get shown 56hh here some of the time, but mostly expect to have the best hand otr enough to snap given above. In the meantime, you essentially got 3 streets of value in a spot where you're usually only getting 2.
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:41 PM   #15
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

Hand 1, easy fold on the flop. I'd actually consider discarding this preflop.

Hand 2, call.
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Old 12-30-2016, 08:21 PM   #16
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

Timing tells make hand 2 a snap call.
When he's donking dark, you are ahead close to 100% of the time.

Just a questions if we should raise the river/turn or flat both.
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Old 12-30-2016, 10:05 PM   #17
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aces_Full_47 View Post
Edit. Had to think about it a bit - this was at 4:00 AM last night - but I recall that he mucked before I showed. I continued to turn my hand over anyway for table image purposes.

Never showing.
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Old 12-30-2016, 11:16 PM   #18
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

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Never showing.
Then you will never be awarded the pot. The house rule at Winstar is that in order to be awarded a pot at showdown, both cards must be shown regardless of whether the other hands are mucked.
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Old 12-30-2016, 11:58 PM   #19
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

Oh, okay. Is that unusual?


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Old 12-31-2016, 12:27 AM   #20
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

No it is not unusual. It just depends on the poker room. Some have a rule where you don't have to show and some have a rule where you have to show. Whether or not casinos take a hard stance on this rule is a whole nother thing. Some rooms will enforce it, but I'm guessing dealers at most casinos will let it slide unless someone makes a stink out of it.
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Old 12-31-2016, 12:52 AM   #21
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Re: Pair of tricky hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by donkatruck View Post
I'm just not getting the call in hand 1. Unless the board runs out Q-A and we face JJ/TT,AJ, KQ, I dont see us ever getting paid when we improve so it makes little sense to peel one off. If the J hits how are we ever extracting value from a non drooler. Do we really love life if an A hits? Do we ever get paid if a J hits?
I actually read the description as saying V2's was planning to fold. If V2 is planning to call then folding is best. V2's limp call from EP and then not folding this flop is very bad for hero.

The plan in this case is to call flop and see if villain continues. This is a good board for villain to c-bet anything he raised so I don't see auto folding second pair as good. But hero is hoping villain gives up on turn and hero can check down the hand.
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