Reads and History

Hero. is 21 y.o. plays AG, a regular at this place. Not particluary loose this session, but running good and playing good. [Stack ~ $1800]

Villain 1. Is 40ish white pro player (does this for a living, plays the whole way up to $5/10, when available). I haven't played with him a lot, but he is good, very tight and medium aggro. He is never getting out of line, and I haven't seen him pulling a bluff of at least medium size in ~10 hours playing. He value bets relentlessly, thought. [Stack ~ $3000]

Villain 2. Is white, under 20, recreational player, but playing very LAG, running good, capable of everything, not giving up easily. [Stack ~ $1500]

Villain 3. Is black, mid aged, overweight, stuck ~$3k, loose-passive pre, loose-aggresive post, will raise with any piece of the flop "for information" tries to bully shorter stacks. [Stack = $1000]

Table overall thriving with fish, couple of shortstacked regulars trying to win a big pot. One whale finaly got busted out a few hands ago, so the table is 8 handed with 4 huge stacks ($1000+) and 4 small ones ($400ish). The strange part is that play doesn't degenerate into 1/2/25 with deepstacks. $10 is the standard open raise.

Teh Hand:
Hero is SB.
V1 is BB.
V2 is MP.
V3 is BU.

folded to V2.
V2 raises $10 from MP.
folded to button.
V3 calls $10 from BU.
Hero is SB with AT.

Hero ..?

V2 is openning AT+, all pp, all 2 broadway card hands and most sc.
V3 is calling with ATC.
V1 is still to act.

damn those are some huge stacks for $1/$2. where is this game?

Russia
Underground poker club.

Must be uncapped buyin?

I'm just calling here, I think, though I never play this deep.

I guess call since we can get paid nicely against their ranges if we hit broadway or trip 10s with top kicker. Nut flush would be nice too but just won't get paid off as often as the other two scenarios. And folding would make for a pretty short thread. Raising would be bad OOP this deep since villains will likely call with almost all of their range.

Reads and History

Hero. is 21 y.o. plays AG, a regular at this place. Not particluary loose this session, but running good and playing good. [Stack ~ $1800]

Villain 1. Is 40ish white pro player (does this for a living, plays the whole way up to $5/10, when available). I haven't played with him a lot, but he is good, very tight and medium aggro. He is never getting out of line, and I haven't seen him pulling a bluff of at least medium size in ~10 hours playing. He value bets relentlessly, thought. [Stack ~ $3000]

Villain 2. Is white, under 20, recreational player, but playing very LAG, running good, capable of everything, not giving up easily. [Stack ~ $1500]

Villain 3. Is black, mid aged, overweight, stuck ~$3k, loose-passive pre, loose-aggresive post, will raise with any piece of the flop "for information" tries to bully shorter stacks. [Stack = $1000]

Table overall thriving with fish, couple of shortstacked regulars trying to win a big pot. One whale finaly got busted out a few hands ago, so the table is 8 handed with 4 huge stacks ($1000+) and 4 small ones ($400ish). The strange part is that play doesn't degenerate into 1/2/25 with deepstacks. $10 is the standard open raise.

Teh Hand:
Hero is SB.
V1 is BB.
V2 is MP.
V3 is BU.

V2 is openning AT+, all pp, all 2 broadway card hands and most sc.
V3 is calling with ATC.
V1 is still to act.

folded to V2.
V2 raises $10 from MP.
folded to button.
V3 calls $10 from BU.
Hero is SB with AT calls $10.
V1 calls $10.

Flop:
345
Hero checks, knowing that V2 will cbet really wide, and V3 will bet/raise with any piece of the flop.
V1 checks.
V2 quickly bets $25.
V3 mucks, muttering in disgust.
Hero..?


No way to fold ATs pre for <1% of a stack =)

I would call pf, check/raise the flop and if he 3-bets narrow his range to almost all 'stacking-off' hands, even if the flush comes.

hero.. raises to $80.
V1 re-raises to $240.

Let's take a look at REM and SPR.

REM: his range consists out of 33,44,55,67,A2o(we block Ac),perhaps even AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT.

45,540 games 0.000 secs 9,108,000 games/sec

Board: 3s 4c 5c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.971% 53.80% 02.17% 24502 987.00 { TT+, 55-33, 76s, A2o }
Hand 1: 44.029% 41.86% 02.17% 19064 987.00 { AcTc }


Even if we remove the overpairs we have:


21,780 games 0.000 secs 4,356,000 games/sec


Board: 3s 4c 5c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 64.591% 62.13% 02.47% 13531 537.00 { 55-33, 76s, A2o }
Hand 1: 35.409% 32.94% 02.47% 7175 537.00 { AcTc }


Since stacks are so deep, and we're OOP, we want villain to make mistakes when we hit. I think shoving here is wrong. But I think we should call here and revaluate the river, also we have alot of 'cooler hands' that we beat that are almost drawing dead. Like 8c6c or hands like that that will stack off.

V3 muttering sounds like he might have folded one of our aces. Anyways, I like preflop because we are so deep its not even funny, call is just fine here. On the flop, I like a c/r and call against any raise. Raise to like 80 I'd say.. I'm not so much concerned about v2 as I am v1, you said he value bets relentlessly, if v1 raises I think we are most certainly playing the top of his range. If v1 folds and v2 raises I'd probably ship it.. high variance play but I think he will have a lot of other stuff in his range that we're ahead of. Really interested to hear what v1 does..

Hero raises to 85-90 with lots of equity against V2's range and gets him to fold better a lot of the time like better ace highs, a naked pair of 3's or 4's, ect.

Call pre, raise flop. If we are afraid to raise here because we are deep then we may as well not be deep since we are only c/r nut hands and are totally exploitable.

Raising is probably profitable here, but with the stacks so deep, couldn't calling be even more profitable?

Even if we don't stack villain when we improve, we could still probably make enough on average to play for implied odds, especially against a villain who "doesn't give up easily" according to the reads.

Also, we almost have straight pot odds to draw for 1 card (I say "almost" because we probably have 14 or 15 outs but we don't know what cards we want to hit).

EDIT: Here I definitely think it matters that a lot of our outs are to the nuts. If I had a different hand like, say, QJcc, I'd be much more inclined to raise.

I want to fold preflop as we are SB but we are just way too deep as are villains. Certainly not folding.

Raising the flop to allow this guy to play a big pot with PPs. I'd slightly overraise to let us play a big hand, something like $90 works.

Not often i disagree with you. I'd say the reverse. Playing a huge pot here with QJcc sucks, so does folding to a three bet.

Wow. I've never played at a table where 200 BBs is a "shortstack", and there are hardly any times at all when a single player on my table will have 500 BBs, let alone 4 of them. I myself have had 500 BBs sitting in front of me exactly once.

So obviously I'm not a deepstack guy, but isn't the game to simply get into a hand with almost ATC? I'm just calling preflop and probably mostly nutmining. Not exactly sure what the point of raising here would be unless it's simply a sweetner if we feel we currently have an equity advantage (and honestly, we probably do, so maybe that's not horrible).

On the flop I probably raise. We probably have some FE, otherwise we start building a pot with some pretty good equity. We are miles away from commitment and implied odds are ******ed, so we can easily handle facing a reraise. But again, I'm no deepstacker.

I was being a little loose with the term ATC; basically, any two cards that could make a well disguised nut hand. 95o probably doesn't fit the bill (it's actually horrible as we could get in gross situations on a 678 flop with the second best hand), but you'd have to pry 97o from my cold dead hands before I didn't see a flop with it this deep. I'd basically play any offsuit gapper and maybe even most offsuit two gappers.

It could and probably is +EV to play close to ATC on the BTN but OOP it's going to be best to play fairly tight, especially if we are going to be OOP in multiway pots.

This is exactly why I'm more inclined to bluff with QJcc. Hitting our hand has less value, so taking the pot down without a showdown has more value.

EDIT: I'm not actually saying that I've convinced myself calling with ATcc is actually better than raising with it. I'm just saying, we shouldn't automatically be raising just because we have a lot of outs. Calling might be better. As I said, I think raising is probably a good play here; I just don't think it's immediately obvious that calling is worse.

Confession time: I find deep-stacked poker theory fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. I liken it to quantum mechanics ... how, within the same rules and same "game", a simple change in scale yields actions that are so wildly unorthodox from an "everyday" perspective.

Having said that, the greatest play variation from "regular" NL comes preflop, and I think the flat is standard here - you want to keep the SPR fairly high since most of your profit with these stacks will come from nut straights and flushes. Then, once it's 4 ways to the flop, the SPR is "only" 45, which isn't outrageous (it's that of a 4-way limped pot with $360 effective stacks - not that rare at live 1/2).

C/R'ing this flop is a must. If the flush hits, you won't get anyone to stack off if only $25 goes in OTF. Plus I'd like to narrow both villains' ranges while I'm at it.

I'd probably bump it to about 85 and see where it goes from there.

Grunch after flop;
This is like the dream situation to be in when you're so dang deep!
Call pre is best option imo.
A raise on the flop again is pretty mandatory as you have a gutterball and a draw to the nuts. Raise/call to 80ish

Not to derail the PAHWM but positional advantage is much more important than usual when super deep-stacked.

Much, much more important.

As in: Forget 97o, I'd be willing to bet that at full ring, AKo isn't profitable from UTG with 1,000BB stacks.

Reads and History

Hero. is 21 y.o. plays AG, a regular at this place. Not particluary loose this session, but running good and playing good. [Stack ~ $1800]

Villain 1. Is 40ish white pro player (does this for a living, plays the whole way up to $5/10, when available). I haven't played with him a lot, but he is good, very tight and medium aggro. He is never getting out of line, and I haven't seen him pulling a bluff of at least medium size in ~10 hours playing. He value bets relentlessly, thought. [Stack ~ $3000]

Villain 2. Is white, under 20, recreational player, but playing very LAG, running good, capable of everything, not giving up easily. [Stack ~ $1500]

Villain 3. Is black, mid aged, overweight, stuck ~$3k, loose-passive pre, loose-aggresive post, will raise with any piece of the flop "for information" tries to bully shorter stacks. [Stack = $1000]

Table overall thriving with fish, couple of shortstacked regulars trying to win a big pot. One whale finaly got busted out a few hands ago, so the table is 8 handed with 4 huge stacks ($1000+) and 4 small ones ($400ish). The strange part is that play doesn't degenerate into 1/2/25 with deepstacks. $10 is the standard open raise.

Teh Hand:
Hero is SB.
V1 is BB.
V2 is MP.
V3 is BU.

V2 is openning AT+, all pp, all 2 broadway card hands and most sc.
V3 is calling with ATC.
V1 is still to act.

folded to V2.
V2 raises $10 from MP.
folded to button.
V3 calls $10 from BU.
Hero is SB with AT calls $10.
V1 calls $10.

Flop:
345
Hero checks, knowing that V2 will cbet really wide, and V3 will bet/raise with any piece of the flop.
V1 checks.
V2 quickly bets $25.
V3 mucks, muttering in disgust.
Hero raises $75.
V1 calls $75.
V3 raises to $200.
Hero..?

Both villains actions concern me a lot, any ideas on their ranges and my actions?

Now I think this is a clear call. With $1300 effective behind, you can call $125 and try to make the nuts. I would not do any more semi-bluffing, though, as it looks like someone likes their hand a lot.

What happens if you improve, but not to the nuts, is a really interesting question to me here, especially since we're way out of position.

Like it all so far. At this point I would call the raise and plan to make my flush on the turn.

One can hope, right?

Well reraising would be pretty awful, especially with V1 still to act behind us, and V1 could be on a worse flush draw so I like a call.

I'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts on villains' ranges here though. I think V1's range might be something like A2, 26, a set, OESD+FD, gutshot+FD, Kxcc, maybe Qxcc, probably not Jxcc or lower. V2 on more made hands so 67, 26s, A2s, a set, OESD+FD.