so i fold to the flop check/raise.

as played i call turn.

as played i check the hell out of the river.


flop: I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but it's a disaster if we call the flop c/r, UTG shoves and SB repops. Or doesn't repop. Either way, this situation is a tire fire for us. Even if UTG doesn't shove, we're looking at a situation where we call the 250 and SB can slam 500 at our faces on a bunch of turns that we won't like. So I learn my lesson of knowing how many are in the hand rather than just assuming how many are in the hand and carry on.

Turn: sizing is weird, clock call is weird. I'm a lot more likely to call after he calls the clock on me. I don't think I've encountered a single situation where someone calls clock on an individual with both parties having chips behind with streets ahead (copyright pierce hawthorne) when that individual is trying to do anything but bully the other person to fold. I interpret this action as saying "I just called the clock on you and I'll probably do it again on the river, so just save yourself and fold." I like to disappoint my opponents

River: Yes, we might be missing thin value, but jfc just get to showdown. And under no circumstances is hero to show till villain either tables or mucks. Don't accept villain stating his hand, wait for him to turn it over.

I also would ask to see his hand

Edit: Sorry for stealing your word, sheled

Soul owned

Offer to lease his soul back to him for $100/month.

Nice hand, great PAHWM.

I don't think he calls 300 either. I think the only way you were getting more of his money was the "post oak" super small value bet that he can't fold to out of principle.

How much would that be? And what if he shoves back?

I think another lesson here is the importance of paying attention, confirming actions and stacks esp when players are behind. These mistakes are all the more common late when we've been playing a long time.

Def. an interesting PAHWM.

Read results, think that's the absolute bottom of V's range. Nice hand, kind of surprising that V doesn't know you have an overpair....that should be pretty obvious. I think V is way more likely to show up with a hand like 97 that got counterfeited. Are you sure he's a 2/5 pro?

I expect villain did put hero on an over pair but really wanted to confirm it when he gave up betting the river. Some people really hate not knowing in that sort of situation.

I would guess villain is a 2/5 player since he was willing to make a $300 blocking bet on the turn. The blatant sizing tells are bad though and anybody playing like that at 2/5 would get eaten up. It is more likely he is a bad 2/5 regular, though I know some decent 2/5 regulars who are bad at 1/2 because the money doesn't matter to them.

I want to come play!!!

Nice PAHWM!

V sounds more like a bad LAG than anything else...JMO

Definitely not a pro.

I think that changes things. A pro also probably wouldn't show or ask to see what you had since they would already know, lol.

98s, cool, let's see a flop for $5, huh, the dude in the nice suit just made it $50, seems like a good guy, seriously obsessed about cookies though, he's got $1800 to start, nice!, hmmm, tricky lag straddler calls also with $450 behind, well, one time dealer, can't fold them suited connectors, pot $160, flop 975, GIN!, check obv, suit $75, lag calls, well, let's put the pressure on them, $250 total boys, a call and a fold, ok, turn is a T, open ended, yes!, welp, $735 in there, suit is sitting on $1500, let's go $300, just... because, hmmmm, suit is tanking, CLOCK!, suit calls, ok, $1335 in there, suit has $1200 left, river 5, crap, didn't hit my straight, let's shuffle some chips and look scary, should i fire another big bet, nah, check, suit slides out $395, hmmm, $395 to win $1730, I guess he's got me beat, I fold, I'll show him my hand so he'll show me his, gotta see it, what?, ok yeah, I'll pay $25 to see one card, cause then I'll know for sure if I made a good fold..... right?

(recognizing that a player this bad doesn't know what the effective stacks are, might have a rough idea, and isn't keeping track of the pot size, just how big it looks)

Interesting that villain now sucks when 2 days ago most of the thread wanted to fold otf and many at least leaned hard that way ott. Had he kept his mouth shut and bet the turn a little stronger his line would have been profitable (regardless of whether kookiecrusher folded in this instance) particularly if hero's smallish sizing wasn't in error.

KM read was 2/5 reg. I think we assumed a certain minimum level of competence from that read and SB fell short.

SB seems like he was a gambler. Positionally unaware. 1st level only. No concept of pot size betting. No tracking of stack or pot sizes. No planning ahead.

Did I miss anything?

+1

V just needs to size his bets better.

I could have done a better job in the read department. We have a history of me being a donkey and trying to push him off hands, hense his reluctance to fold the river.

The 2/5 games here are filled with Lags who bet 2/5-1/2 pot because they are mostly FOS. Maybe to him, this is a normal bet size.

I generally assume these better 1/2 players know the pot size, just don't know what to do with the info.

Not everyone reads books, analyzes hands, posts on 2plus2.

Just because V accidentally stumbled into a line that could exploit our ability to fold an overpair doesn't make him Phil Ivey.

I was for folding the flop because calling the flop with a plan to "evaluate" the turn doesn't make sense to me.

Also, KM gave a detailed read, but given the wedding quip, most of us probably assumed that V possibly viewed Hero as a rec player, not that they had multi-session history against each other. And remember, Hero was considering jamming the turn, not folding.

If V posts this hand and stops at the point he is facing the bet and call of $75 on the flop, I'm guessing not too many people would suggest that a raise to $250 total, followed by a turn barrel is the way to go, because, yeah, BB and UTG will fold better and we'll rarely get raised off of our equity.

Actually if V posts this hand most will say fold pre.

I wasn't intending to be critical of the mostly prudent fold advice and I didn't mean to imply in any way that V is Phil Ivey or a great player of any kind. I was simply trying to point out what seemed to me like the immediate dismissal of his play which I think is a mistake.

Look, if Hero did just have 2 overs here... AK or whatever which is a large part of his range... Villain would have succeeded in folding out whatever equity/blockers the 3rd player had, probably gotten an additional 175 in value OTF from Hero and taken it down on the turn. As poorly as he acted with his clock call and with his weak turn sizing he still probably had enough FE to get a lot of TAGs off an overpair OTT. Combined with his actual equity it's probably still a profitable bet.

He may have accidentally stumbled as you suggest into taking a line that is close to being a profitable one but I sometimes play in a 2/5-2500 game with guys capable of doing exactly this. But sometimes they's go ahead and set up for a river shove OTT 500+ BB deep. I don't know that they are even winners in the game but they can put you to the test. And guys who buy in for the 100bb minimum and happen to run it up in that game...they fold to the pressure.

The comments (Lapidator's comes to mind as he pegged the villain I believe) advocating a check OTF early in this thread predicted what was to come in this hand.

This is a hand where stack sizes matter. Much shallower and you can decide whether to try and GII on the flop.

When deeper stacked, you have to be concerned with stack preservation. Against an aggressive opponent capable of semi-bluff raising who puts you on an overpair when that is exactly the hand you have (even if your range is wider), a certain amount of caution is called for. That doesn't mean you should definitely check the flop, but I think your approach to poker is flawed if that doesn't cross your mind as a legitimate option.

pre: V has relative position for 3% of effective stack against PFR, I'm maybe it's hard to argue that it's a terrible call pre, but as a positional nit I'm folding. BB attacked the blinds with a bet that looks like it wants to take it down, so his range "could" be all over the place. UTG straddler calls for 10% of his stack. Yeah, I'm folding as SB.

If I believe V to be aggro and not good enough to recognize that my call of a x/r potentially reps significant strength, then I'm usually checking behind on this flop. Keep his range wide and all that.

I will fess up to immediate dismissal of the x/r small as a semi-bluff here. SB should want folds. (hitting his hand on the turn is likely action killer) x/r to $350 total on the flop followed up with $500 on the turn is so much more likely to be successful than $250, $300. At LLSNL, expecting BB and UTG to recognize the implied strength and not go "lol pot odds" is FPS imo. Theoretically, it might be ideal, craftily rep strength at low risk, but in practice? So I immediately dismissed it because I expect a 2-5 reg to recognize that hard to get folds this way, thus he should be strong. If your position is that some 2-5 regs will play this way, I would say that I don't see that level of play much.

Not sure that it matters, but calling the clock, showing his hand, and tipping $25 to see one hero card sure suggests V was just clicking buttons this time.

Agreed. If I'm at a table of decent aggressive players that try to exploit that I'm concerned with stack preservation, I should either adjust in some way or cash out.