PAHWM: QJs MW @ 1/3 - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

1/3. Been @ table for 30-45 minutes. Villain is an unknown MABG w/ a lot of chips. Seems loose/passive pre, no real reads on him post flop. Hero MAWG playing tight/ABC w/ $450 effective. 7-handed, table is playing loose/ABC thus far:

Hero (MP/$450): Q

Button straddles $6, fold, Villain (BB) c $6, fold, Hero r $30, fold, CO/BTN c $30, V c $30

Flop ($113): Q

V x, H ???

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02-14-2019 , 06:59 PM

MikeStarr

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 7,962

$45

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02-14-2019 , 07:17 PM

browni3141

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 5,678

Check.

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02-14-2019 , 07:49 PM

adamzerner

centurion

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 126

Ryan Fee's answer to this sort of question is that you should bet in order to deny your opponents equity.

Quote:

In multi-way pots, it can be correct to bet with marginal value hands in order to force folds and deny our opponent’s their equity.

There will be many flop textures where your hand is likely to be best, but your opponents still have significant equity against you. Betting in these spots is a good way to prevent your opponents from freely realizing their equity.

Playing your bet range this way will throw it off balance, especially when you check, but it is unlikely that all of your opponents will be exploiting this value/bluff imbalance.

He goes on to recommend betting JhTh on Js9h5s versus three opponents. See the The Importance of Denying Equity section in When Should You Bet The Flop In Multiway Pots.

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02-14-2019 , 08:19 PM

DumbosTrunk

Verified Coach PLO5

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 7,324

Bet $35-$40. Probably have the best hand, get A/K-highs to fold, possibly extract value from stubborn lower pairs. Nice to see the 9d out there too giving us bdfd/bdsd in case we get raised.

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02-14-2019 , 08:22 PM

Minatorr

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 5,235

Quote:

Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk

Bet $35-$40. Probably have the best hand, get A/K-highs to fold, possibly extract value from stubborn lower pairs. Nice to see the 9d out there too giving us bdfd/bdsd in case we get raised.

Not exactly nice when getting raised when people heavily underbluff vs cbets, especially multiway and us blocking straight draw bluffs

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02-14-2019 , 08:22 PM

Minatorr

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 5,235

Flop i check with diamonds, if i did bet it’s 60% pot. 1/3 doesnt make sense on this texture multiway

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02-14-2019 , 08:32 PM

DumbosTrunk

Verified Coach PLO5

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 7,324

Minatorr: It's a relatively dry board. Do you want people to fold all their lower pairs to one bet? I think a bigger bet mostly gets calls from hands that beat us and the one legitimate draw out there (JT, which we block), and folds out hands that we beat and are drawing slim (22-88, TT, JJ, KT).

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02-14-2019 , 08:38 PM

DumbosTrunk

Verified Coach PLO5

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 7,324

Quote:

Originally Posted by adamzerner

Ryan Fee's answer to this sort of question is that you should bet in order to deny your opponents equity.

He goes on to recommend betting JhTh on Js9h5s versus three opponents. See the The Importance of Denying Equity section in When Should You Bet The Flop In Multiway Pots.

I wouldn't exactly call QJ a "marginal" value hand. It's actually a pretty strong hand that should be bet for value most of the time. It's rare that we'll have top pair and be out-kicked. Also, in the JT example, there are a host of draws to charge - different straight draws, a flush draw, two pair draws for people with middle and bottom pair - plus overcards.

This board texture is dry but we are still somewhat vulnerable, so I prefer a bet to checking to get value from worse hands and deny equity to overcards.

Last edited by DumbosTrunk; 02-14-2019 at 08:44 PM.

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02-14-2019 , 10:24 PM

#10

Minatorr

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 5,235

Quote:

Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk

It’s not that dry, there are a gazillion straight draws that will call a 60% psb.

Many players are non-believers on paired boards as well. They also dont put us on many 9x altho we have more than they think we do.

1010/JJ are basically almost never ever folding this flop. 88 is pretty optimistic too

1/3 sizing implies you’re betting most if not all of your range, multiway this almost never happens and esp on this texture and paired boards

Last edited by Minatorr; 02-14-2019 at 10:33 PM.

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02-14-2019 , 11:57 PM

#11

Phil Me Up

adept

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 808

I appreciate the feedback thus far . . .

Spoiler:

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02-15-2019 , 01:19 AM

#12

MogFish

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 334

Kind of a weird spot because we block everything we want him to have: Qx, JT, diamonds and we basically have to call off if we get jammed on... That being said our hand is too good to check back here. Bet $100 targeting worse Qx, straight draws and lower pocket pairs.

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02-15-2019 , 01:23 AM

#13

wait

banned

Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 1,115

betting flop and checking turn

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02-15-2019 , 02:03 AM

#14

setintostraight

adept

Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 884

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Me Up

I appreciate the feedback thus far . . .

Spoiler:

Check and eval river.

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02-15-2019 , 02:10 AM

#15

Minatorr

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 5,235

Turn is a check, QJs here is a 2-street hand

Can bet check bet, or check bet bet. It serves as a good bluff catcher and we cant rly get 3 streets. AQ should go for 3 streets and maybe KQ, depends if your opp always 3b AQ or not

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02-15-2019 , 02:31 AM

#16

DumbosTrunk

Verified Coach PLO5

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 7,324

Bet $65-$75. V hasn’t given us any indication we’re beat and we picked up equity in the off chance we’re behind. Check all rivers unimproved. This bet also gets us to showdown a little cheaper than if we were to check and V donked bigger otr in case we’re beat.

Btw it would be nice to know a little more about the V who called us. Edit: “loose passive” = check calls draws and raises strong hands. He could have worse Qx. These Vs love suited Qx. Have you seen any of his showdowns? Did they contain any top pair weak kickers? I’m betting mainly for value and to charge draws.

Also, if we happen to value own ourselves against KQ or AQ it’s ok. That’s part of poker.

Last edited by DumbosTrunk; 02-15-2019 at 03:00 AM.

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02-15-2019 , 02:42 AM

#17

browni3141

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 5,678

Turn is more of a check than the flop. Betting vs checking flop is whatever but I don’t think checking turn is close. We want to see the river with diamonds and we don’t exactly have a fat value hand.

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02-15-2019 , 03:49 AM

#18

Minatorr

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 5,235

Quote:

Originally Posted by browni3141

Yeah, I agree. Bet or check flop are both fine. You really can't go wrong otf unless you open fold or overbet shove, and anything you do is +EV and won't be drastically different in EV from each other. but I think check is a good amount better ott than bet.

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02-15-2019 , 05:53 AM

#19

momo_uk

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 2,546

Quote:

Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk

Nice to see the 9d out there too giving us bdfd/bdsd in case we get raised.

You’re calling a raise OTF? Seems bad.

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02-15-2019 , 05:57 AM

#20

momo_uk

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 2,546

Check turn.

What do you guys doing when V bets river though? Kind of a very ****ty spot.

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02-15-2019 , 08:27 AM

#21

MikeStarr

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 7,962

Check turn.

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02-15-2019 , 09:58 AM

#22

samo

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 4,251

Given the configuration of the hand, specifically Hero PFR, then cbetting when checked to with 2 players behind, Hero range should look strong. JJ/JT/T9 combos are blocked.

LP opponent can have better QX hands in their range, as well as some A9/98 combos. Last to act on flop, he could have been sticky with TT, which he would likely fold to a turn bet. No reads post flop, so he could be checking his strong hands with the intent to X/R.

I’d lean check and try to get river value. If opponent leads a blank river, evaluate sizing. Could be a fold given he's LP.

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02-15-2019 , 10:14 AM

#23

DonkeyRock

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 351

Quote:

Originally Posted by momo_uk

You’re calling a raise OTF? Seems bad.

Are you putting your opponent on exclusively hands that beat us OTF if they raise?

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02-15-2019 , 11:26 AM

#24

MogFish

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2019 Posts: 334

Why check turn if we’re looking to get two streets? Waiting until all the draws brick before we bet for value seems bad. Getting raised on the turn sucks but we’re still doing ok against 9x with a card to come. If we check turn and give a free card and everything bricks are we a calling river lead? We have more clarity and control with a b/b/x line.

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02-15-2019 , 12:06 PM

#25

Lapidator

LLSNL Frequent Flyer

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 13,762

Bet flop.

Check turn since Hero has position and can see the river for free.

Bet/fold river blanks 60% of pot.

Bet/call river flushes 40% of pot.

Probably call all bets by villain.

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